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Chinese Replica 1879 Morgan

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6026 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2012  10:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This copy of a non0rare date is pretty good. Can any of you Morgan specialists see design flaws on this that would be a telltale sign?

BTW - how do I know its a fake? Its one of the ones I bought from the Chinese seller on ebay a few years ago so I could become educated about them - just getting around to taking/posting pics.





The bad thing is that it has a good ring to it like silver. It weighs 26 grams (scale not sensitive enough for closer accuracy) and is not magnetic.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
15552 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2012  10:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Does it have EXACTLY the same comparison ring tone to a genuine Morgan?

I am not a Morgan specialist, so I will leave it to others to pick if there are are any DESIGN flaws.

Nevertheless, that does not stop me from picking COPYING flaws, and there is one that is fairly obvious:
Those stars do not have defined arms on them. As a result, this coin appears to be at least a first generation copy.

What does the edge milling look like? Does that compare consistently with a genuine coin?

I suspect that this example has been die struck, not cast.

This fake is definitely a keeper. By close examimation of it, you can educate yourself on what to look for in a fake.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
3931 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2012  11:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am no Morgan expert nor even I can call myself a newbie in this series, but the G in the motto "In God we trust" looks odd!

Have you given the tissue test yet?

The Mercury Dimes Specialist!
Current project: US Dansco 7070 Album
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2012  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1893S to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Right off the bat the date looks terrible. Eagles tail feathers are bad, Liberty is not right, Actually the whole coin is off.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  12:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice. :-) If that's the case, this is probably one of the die-struck silver-plated copper-core counterfeits that are coming to the forefront.

They ring like silver because the copper alloy is tweaked to sound like silver. It'll even have a diamagnetic reaction from the copper, too (albeit a weaker one).

The reeding is usually the easiest tipoff on these. Their reeds are usually large and concave with a ratio of about 1.5:1 to 2:1 (recess width to space between them) where genuine Morgan reeds are much narrower (a ratio of about 1:2). Sometimes you can see up to a quarter inch of overlap on the reeding as well as the reeds are commonly added on before the strike during edge milling.

I'm always looking for more of these in my collection. :-)
Pillar of the Community
United States
4037 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  05:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bpoc1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Liberty looks wrong especially the B I think.
Valued Member
United States
203 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  08:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add slowaltima to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am, by no means an expert, but Liberty looks off, the stars don't look correct, the edge on the reverse looks odd, the tail feathers look odd. The wear on the eagle's breast doesn't seem to match the rest of the coin. The talons looks a little mushy like it was copied.
Pillar of the Community
United States
648 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  09:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tokenmast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
design flaws


Not many, however in comparison to the 1879 picture in CCF US coin facts Thank you Susanlynn9 .. There is an extra berry below his right wing, behind the leaves ( die chip ?)
And as macmercury noted the G looks odd (grease filled or broken off).

If it is as SteveCaruso said (silver plated) it would pass the tissue test.

A fine example of craftsmanship (read scary)Thank you Earle42
Valued Member
United States
180 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AU90o to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You sure this is fake? The design is superb and the strike is not soft like a typical CF.
There is some distubance in lower field of the reverse. In particular under tail feather and around LARR and CA towards the rim. Could be just toning or some sort of planchet issue?
Pillar of the Community
United States
6026 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  11:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I bought these to learn and share the info. Everyone gave me some good ideas what to look for. I got to the bank and now have my legit 1879 in hand. So I did a photo session this AM.

Here are the results:
Pic 1: Taken with both coins side by side; coins cropped out of pic and backgrounds removed; then put back side by side.



Looking closely, it appears "Liberty Nushi" has a slightly larger head and eye than Miss Liberty does.

Pic 2: Fake Morgan tinted green and superimposed onto legit Morgan while aligning the coins by the dates.



Sure enough - Liberty Nushi's head is larger than Miss Liberty's, but not by much (back of head pretty much aligns while front profile sticks out further in front). The top lettering and rim denticles are totally misaligned. Now looking back at the side by side comparison it seems Liberty Nushi has her lips pursed more than the legit (but I thought this was a legit difference on some die varieties of Morgans?

Pic 3: Fake Morgan re-tinted red and superimposed onto legit Morgan; fake shrunk slightly; and profiles aligned.
Again Liberty Nushi's head can be seen to be larger b/c, even though slighty shrunken in size, the pic shows the back of her head extends beyond Miss Liberty's head. So although the front profile aligns, most lettering is all over the place.




Pic 4: Edge milling - here is a good way to tell the difference.



Ring Test: This piece has a slightly higher pitched tone to its ring.



Edited to make pics larger so details can be better determined
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Edited by Earle42
05/18/2012 3:54 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
6026 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  12:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AU90o said,

Quote:
You sure this is fake? The design is superb and the strike is not soft like a typical CF


Yes - no doubt at all. It was ordered directly from the man who owned the Big Tree Coin Factory in China. He had many pages of his fakes on ebay a few years ago. I got it with other pieces I bought from him for the purpose of becoming educated so as not to be fooled. And now, after being on CCF, I want to share the info.

Others pics to be posted of a Trade dollar ans Seated dollar - hopefully soon...
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Valued Member
United States
180 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  2:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AU90o to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With the side-by-side comparison, you can really tell the fake has devices and peripheral lettering bigger than normal. I'm so glad you are doing this. Thank you!
Pillar of the Community
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep, that's the reeding I was talking about.

Note how the ratios just about line up with what I mentioned earlier. The real Morgan from that era is ~1:2. This fake here is about 1.75:1.

It's also a bit thicker to add weight, as the alloy is lighter than genuine coin silver.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6026 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  3:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is the comparison for the REVs:

Pic 1: Side by side its hard to see any differences.





Pic 2: The fake was tinted green and overlaid on legit Morgan. Amazing copy! There is very little difference from the original. The bottom wording shows some slight misplacement and there is some shifting to the left of the eagle.



Pic 3: This is a closeup of the differences in the REVs.



Edited to make images larger
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Edited by Earle42
05/18/2012 3:57 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
2504 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  3:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TreasHunt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Amazing copy.

Thanks for posting
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
15552 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2012  8:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Superimposed images for direct comparison are one of the most powerful tools used in the detection of fakes.
Thank You for the education.

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