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8 Reales 1835 Zacatecas Overweight: 27,81g

 
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New Member

Germany
10 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2015  03:02 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Cologne to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello to all!

I am new here and from Cologne.

First I thought it could be a fake coin because the overweight but the coin looks good. Then I found posts of swamperbob (see below).

I think the coin is genuine. What do you think?

Thank you!

The coin:
Weight: 27.81g
Density: 10.30 (if Ag and Cu used = silver content 0.885 fine ; attention: my method of measurement is not perfect)
Edge: ((((()))))
weak strike
poorly made planchet (porosity etc.)


Swamperbob helps me a lot with his posts - thx!:

“The 1835 and 1836 coins were actually very poorly made.”
“The era covered by these coins 1830-1836 falls into the period when the mint was operated by local authorities of the State of Zacatecas. The facility under this management reached its high point in QUALITY of production in 1829. Quality steadily deteriorated after that point until 1836 when the central government took over the operation.”
“Overweight coins were often kept for sale to "friendly banking interests" these coins USUALLY got melted very quickly but some have survived. You may have one. Definitely check SG and the rim looking for possible anomalies. The forgery ring making debased Zs coins operated until at least 1838 (based on examples in my collection) so some caution is advised.”
“In 1835 however, there are edge dies that do not match those used on clearly real 8Rs. I suspect the operation had moved out of the mint by 1835. This is also the date when the "REVERSED RIM" design becomes so common. On most 8Rs the edge pattern ))))))))))) runs all the way around with no change - but in 1835 a LARGE number reverse at the mid point. ((((((())))))).“

http://goccf.com/t/108186
http://goccf.com/t/70541





Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16673 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2015  03:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quality control, in this case accuracy of weight, would have been harder to achieve in the somewhat chaotic conditions under which this coin was minted.
I think that despite being a little heavy, this coin is OK in terms of weight.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4129 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2015  08:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First off, welcome.

Riddell No. 244 is a documented overweight contemporary counterfeit of this issue, but in composition it was quite debased. Your measurement of the specific gravity, even if not perfectly accurate, suggests strongly that your specimen is not one of these.

However, my impression from your excellent photos is that it looks somewhat like a casting. Thus I'd be reluctant to call it genuine. But my opinion is relatively uninformed and hardly authoritative. I'd note that an authentic 1835 Zs is not particularly valuable. So maybe you should actually hope that it is one of the more interesting perversions of this issue.
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
02/06/2015 08:23 am
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1210 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2015  08:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome, Cologne, the coin looks ok to me. The weight is a bit high but I have a 1833 Zs specimen which weighs 27.51 grams. I think my coin is genuine; will show you tomorrow. Always better to show the edge to determine it is fake or notin my humble opinion. Good edge-engraving is a challenge to forgers. Henry
New Member
Germany
10 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2015  10:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cologne to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your responses!

Overweight
In this topic are 2 Zacatecas coins with overweight:
http://goccf.com/t/70541
1834: 28,9g
1836: 28,8g

Cast
Yes, the first impression is, it could be cast, but I´dont think so. Compare this topic:
http://goccf.com/t/108186
Sounds like struck silver coin (but I have heard that silver casts can sound like struck silver coins...Correct?)

Edge
Currently I can´t make pics...
The edge looks ok, especially the transition from ))) to (((. I know a pic tells more than 1000 words...

Density
It is ok.
It depends from 0,01"g":
27.81g / 2.70cm3 = 10.30 (I see now: 0.880).
27.81 / 2.69 = 10.338 = perfect match.

I am hoping for further critical comments!

Edited by Cologne
02/06/2015 10:16 am
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1210 Posts
 Posted 02/06/2015  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 1830s Zs 8R always give me an impression that they are all crude strikes. The weights are much varied than latter eagle dollars. My coin is one of the examples.

27.51 grams, 37.7-38.0 mm, S.G.10.227 (about 83% Ag)













New Member
Germany
10 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2015  05:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cologne to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the pics, wonghinghi

Here some pics with higher resolution.









Edited by Cologne
02/07/2015 05:06 am
New Member
Germany
10 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2015  05:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cologne to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
See pic 1:

If it is a bad cast, you haven´t the fine lines going outside (see characters or wing). Right?

I don´t know the English expression for these fine lines ((often) seen at Roman Denarii).
Pillar of the Community
United States
4129 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2015  09:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They do look like flow lines typically associated with the use of a very worn die. Perhaps the granulrity elsewhere that's suggestive of a casting is due to the die having been allowed to rust, or it could also be an artifact of the process employed to make a counterfeit die. It's hard to be really definitive about a coin like this, with improvisation at the official mint and forgery outside of it both being rife during this period.
Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
02/08/2015 08:48 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
4933 Posts
 Posted 02/08/2015  02:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cologne

In my estimation the coin is most likely genuine.

The reversed rim is seen on both genuine and counterfeit examples of this date. The counterfeit varieties are as suggested above debased copies. So the density is very critical and should be done as accurately as possible.

The coin is struck not cast. The very poor planchets made during the 1831-1836 period were struck from poorly rolled cast ingots with large voids. Most of the pores I see were part of the casting of the fillet ingot. I have a few examples where the pores go from one side through to the other side.

The coin does exhibit erosion lines caused by flow over the die surface. Some of these well worn dies were sold for scrap. So the debased counterfeits mentioned above were struck from badly worn dies. That is actually why for this 5 year period it could be theoretically possible to have a genuine coin and a counterfeit struck from the same die pair. The high grade silver examples would have been struck in the mint and are genuine while the debased coins made from the identical dies would be debased and should have a poorer edge.

These are VERY specific clues that attach to ONLY this very brief period of time. They do not apply with equal force outside this brief window of time.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
Germany
10 Posts
 Posted 02/08/2015  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cologne to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you very much for your comments! I learned a lot!

I hope I can make soon pics of the edge.



New Member
Germany
10 Posts
 Posted 02/09/2015  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cologne to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have reactivated my old coin scanner...

Here are scans of the edge. Your comments are appreciated!





Pillar of the Community
United States
4129 Posts
 Posted 02/09/2015  7:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, what are the chances? I stumbled across this today at one of my regular haunts, and they almost never deal in stuff like this, it being a type they're not at all well versed in. So I can't understand why they acquired it, really. Needless to say they bought this thinking it was the genuine article, but even to my just semi-trained eye it was pretty obviously not so (although it clearly was good enough to fool folks back in the day, as evidenced by its well circulated condition). A quick weighing (24.5 grams) convinced them I was on the mark in my assessment, and I ended up purchasing it it for what they had paid (a smidgen over bullion value if it was real and not debased).

I've tentatively identified this as a Riddell No. 246. The edge exhibits the opposed (or "reversed" if you will) pattern.






Colligo ergo sum
Edited by Lucky Cuss
02/09/2015 10:32 pm
New Member
Germany
10 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2015  08:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cologne to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Lucky Cuss. There is a real difference between the edges of the 2 1835 coins.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4933 Posts
 Posted 02/12/2015  7:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reversed edge on the 1835 Zs is most often seen on counterfeit versions made outside the mint using GENUINE mint dies that were well worn.

I say most often because at times the density (Specific Gravity) of the coins with the reverse rim are very close to genuine. Some I do classify as genuine based on SG but I still wonder if XRF should be done to be sure the forgers were not using a denser alloy.

The 1835 Zs Riddell # 246 was assayed as 330 fine. It was a successful forgery at the time and is still relatively plentiful today. I attribute that to a combination of a very crude look (peaked people's curiosity) and low silver value making refining less valuable.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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