Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Swiss 1850 5 Franc - Fake?

 
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
New Member

United States
5 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2015  7:06 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Walter235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello everyone!

I am an avid collector of Swiss Confederation majors and minors. A few months ago, I ran across what will either become a collector's dream or a collector's nightmare.

I purchased an 1850A 5 Franc coin, the first universal 5 Franc piece minted by the newly formed Swiss Confederation of Cantons. This kind of coin has always been considered WAY outside my budget. It was purchased from a private, life-long collector for an extremely reasonable price, given the coin and its condition. At the time of purchase, I was skeptical, knowing that so many of these Swiss coins are being counterfeited, and finding there way around the world. But, for the price, I decided to take the chance!

I've been researching hard to determine if the coin is fake. But so far, my research has left me stuck in the middle. A lot about the coin makes me think it is real, and a lot makes me think it is fake.

Does anyone have experience with identifying Swiss fakes? I've attached a few pictures that will hopefully provide a good look at the coin's features.

The photos don't show it well, but the coin has some beautiful deep amber and rainbow toning, and I'll keep it regardless. It is still a very cool monument, to a very cool coin!

Thanks for everyone's help. Happy collecting!









Valued Member
United States
235 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2015  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PatAR to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome to the forums.

I am not an expert in this series, but certainly find the Swiss 19th and 20th century coins appealing.

If at all possible, I would suggest that you post some higher resolution photos of the coin and perhaps a view of the edge as well. That will greatly enable other forum members in their efforts to assist you.


Pillar of the Community
United States
1192 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2015  9:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bertensgrad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Have you been able to weigh it and check its diameter. Since it's silver it would be hard to fake that unless they made the fake out of silver.
New Member
United States
5 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2015  10:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Walter235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have checked all of the tell tale signs of a fake. The coin's weight is accurate to within a few one hundredths of a gram, and not magnetic. The diameter checks out as well (37 mm across).

I am trying to post a few higher quality pictures, as well as some pictures of the rim.

My biggest concern is some of the details regarding the denticles around the rim. I've heard that slight variances in the diameter of the denticles may be cause to consider the coin a fake.

Thanks so much to those who have offered advice!

Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1210 Posts
 Posted 03/17/2015  11:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Does anyone have experience with identifying Swiss fakes?


Walter, welcome!

There is no God in this forum to say your coin is fake or not. But I believe there must be some flaws present in a fake. Through experience sharing and information exchange, we can at least make a conclusion to something. We can work it out a fake in most case.

Doubtless, this Swiss old dollar-sized coin is popular for forgeries. I will post my 1851A for your comparison.

Would you also post some more large pictures for your coin?


Pillar of the Community
United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2015  01:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Based on the reflectivity of your coin - it would appear to be rather high grade. A genuine coin in high grades should have very fine straight shading lines around the cross - a close examination of these lines will often disclose a forgery. Fine details are the most difficult aspect of many coins for forgers.

You have weight and diameter but have you calculated the density of the coin?

The dentils must be sharp and uniform. Look for irregularities. Check the edges of letters and the fine detils of the leaves.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1210 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2015  01:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My coin is 37.4-37.5 mm in diameter, 24.83 grams. Non-magnetic and ring test is okay, though not done with S.G. test, I am sure it is silver made.

See the pictures for comparison.













Pillar of the Community
United States
1948 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2015  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it's a fake it's a well-done F-VF. In the broad details it appears very similar to French 5F's I own from that period. At this grade I'd expect some weight loss, perhaps 0.2-0.3 grams. French planchet weight in this period is usually right on 25.0 grams.

Comparing to the NGC plate coin

http://www.NGCcoin.com/price-guide/...-duid-160247

The genuine 1850A appears to have a flaw in the fingers of the extended hand which I don't see on your coin.

cgb shows a single 1850 5F in their archives. The grade is similar to yours. Weight 24.81 grams. Unfortunately the photos are not very high resolution.

http://www.cgb.fr/suisse-confederat..._2138,a.html

Either cgb or NGC would be places to certify the coin. It's high enough value to justify the cost.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
03/18/2015 7:48 pm
Pillar of the Community
Austria
513 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2015  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Check coinworldtv's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wonghinghi´s coin is good.

The first one (seems like an XF) can not be verified from the small photographs.
Checkout my eBay Store: www.CoinWorldTV.com /// Quality World Coins and Medals Auction listings, starting as low as 99 Cents and Without Reserve! ///
Edited by coinworldtv
03/18/2015 8:14 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1376 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2015  02:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Remember, kids... ONLY buy UNC early-mid 1800s Germanic thaler types from people who inherited them from their grandfather (or more preferably, grandMA)...

Small/blurry pics or not, this one should be obvious to those of you that know enough to know:

Must be all from the same hoard:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KM-11-Switz...161537928418
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Switzerland...371214233834
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Switzerland...371276205809
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Switzerland...161574740408
Pillar of the Community
Austria
513 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2015  05:14 am  Show Profile   Check coinworldtv's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed, the four listed are clear forgeries, very crude ones.

These must be quite new forgeries, probably not even made of silver.

...you can still buy UNC early-mid 1800s Germanic thaler types from reputable dealers, it is even more secure.
Checkout my eBay Store: www.CoinWorldTV.com /// Quality World Coins and Medals Auction listings, starting as low as 99 Cents and Without Reserve! ///
Pillar of the Community
United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2015  5:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting how masteryorg the seller has multiples of the same coin and sold one for over $400 and another for less than $20. I would be willing to bet the wholesale cost of the coin is under $5 and the shipping cost covers his actual expenses.

The location McAllen, Texas is a border town touching Reynosa, MX and is a crossing used by more than one dealer in counterfeit coins to smuggle things over the border.

Check the feedback this seller has and notice the number of positive feedbacks involving RETURNED fakes. The seller will keep trying until some idiot takes the fake with no complaints.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1376 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2015  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bob, if you look at some of "yorg"s other offerings, it would appear he is Filipino or at least strongly connected to such... and plenty of the typical East Asian/Chinese material seems to flow from the Philippines.

The thing with these two sellers that's dangerous... they offer/describe things via an Americanized veneer. Intelligible English descriptions, written by someone who sounds like they know something about coins/what to say about them.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4861 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2015  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher I agree with you especially about the use of good English. They are now harder to spot.

I always recommend that newbies check the details of the seller's history including past sales and how they treat the English language.

Of course for buyers who are not English speaking the language clues are not really too valuable.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
United States
5 Posts
 Posted 03/19/2015  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Walter235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is all incredibly helpful information everyone!

I have been coin collecting for most of my life (I'm 28), but have only recently been able to start thinking about collecting in the higher value majors of various countries, series, and varieties. I had known that coin forgeries have become prevalent, but this thread has already doubled my knowledge in suspecting counterfeits and avoiding purchases with a high risk of forgery.

I do understand that no one will be able to look at my pictures and definitively say "fake" or "real." But, I am still working to post some much higher quality pictures to highlight some of the features that many of you have drawn attention to.

Look for some updated pictures in the coming days. I hope to keep the discussion going, and learn as much as I can from everyone.

Happy collecting!
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2019 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.17 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05