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Ancient Chinese Coins Authentication Test #3 - Pointed Knives!

 
 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6362 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2016  09:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I figured now would be a good time to do another one of these. Here are four examples of Ancient Chinese Pointed Knife coins. At least one is guaranteed fake, and at least one is guaranteed genuine.

I got inspired to do this because I got fooled by one of these knives at a first glance (didn't buy it, thankfully), and it is included here.

Other rules for authentication still apply, and you can look at my past threads here:

http://goccf.com/t/263556&SearchTerms=Spade

http://goccf.com/t/266555&SearchTerms=Spade

Good luck and have fun!

#1



#2



#3





#4



Pillar of the Community
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United States
5565 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2016  11:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why not:

1. Fake
2. Real
3. Fake?
4. Real
New Sale! Inexpensive classic Greek silver, over 2,400 years old!

http://goccf.com/t/323297
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United States
22325 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2016  3:22 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
#1 is fake and the rest are real?
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Spain
1353 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2016  5:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Palouche to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok I'll give this a go...............

1st real

The rest fake

Saludos Paul
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United States
11312 Posts
 Posted 11/15/2016  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for doing another one of these. I'm pretty sure that I have never scored above 50% correct.

1. Real
2. Real
3. Fake (lines are too thick)
4. Fake (patina is off)
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
United States
803 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2016  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add brenpickle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will give this a shot, these post have made me really interested in these.

1. Fake (Patina is off, to bright/glossy)
2. Real (but point on end seems a bit odd maybe)
3. Real (nervous though about point being different than 2)
4. Fake (to skinny and not enough curve)

These are just straight guesses.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 11/16/2016  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will wait another day before posting results.

I see that I may not have been as fair this round. I will touch more on why I think so later.

Hint: The overall shape does not really matter. There was an evolution in the 300-400 years this type was produced. I will show the progression later. If you want to change your answers, I understand.
Edited by TypeCoin971793
11/16/2016 6:32 pm
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4195 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2016  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can I wait for Mika to post, and then just copy and paste?
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 Posted 11/16/2016  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No way Bob. Last time you got 80% right so you don't need any extra help.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 11/16/2016  10:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Can I wait for Mika to post, and then just copy and paste?


I'm actually wondering why he hasn't posted yet. This would be right up his alley.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 11/16/2016  10:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bob L to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Last time you got 80% right...


As the saying goes, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Valued Member
Canada
201 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2016  11:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NorthSideTy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


1. Fake
2. Fake
3. Fake
4. Real
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Australia
13093 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2016  01:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, definitely stepping beyond the comfort zone here. I'm not particularly confident at this when the pieces are in hand, let alone from web pictures. But, my opinions are:

1. Fake.

2. Fake.

3. Real.

4. Fake.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Valued Member
Netherlands
85 Posts
 Posted 11/17/2016  12:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Can I wait for Mika to post, and then just copy and paste?

I'm actually wondering why he hasn't posted yet. This would be right up his alley.


Exactly what I wanted to prevent by posting slightly later

To be honest, authentication is definitely not my strong point. Quite the opposite to be more precise. These pointed knives are only represented by a single specimen in my collection, so I can't say I am an expert on these. Nevertheless, I think I have made up my mind. Just keep in mind that these are by no means the correct answers, probably the opposite actually.

1. Mmmmh. Difficult start. Can't really pinpoint this one. The shape, specifically the broader blade and handle do exist. Similar pieces , with such a dark blue patina, have been sold by more reliable dealers, so no problem there (the green bits actually remind me of your Yuan round coin). But overall, it doesn't feel entirely right to me. A little too crisp. Should this one offered to me, it would depend on who was offering it, and if they accept refunds or not whether I would buy it. Hard to say. For the score, I would say fake, but don't pin me down on it. Could go either way.

2. Fake. At least, should this one be offered to me, I would be very, very, very careful. As Thomas already mentioned, the shape changes throughout the minting period. This shape, in combination with the character presented is definitely known. But it just doesn't feel right to me. It looks like part of the "outer rim" is actually more than slightly raised, which is definitely a bad sign (or the photo is just playing tricks with my eyes). The lines on the handle look dullish, and so does the character. And I can't say I like the colour: It looks pretty grey-ish, not like a copper knife should be. On the other hand, I believe I have seen other metal finds from a waterish environment with a similar patina, so who knows. But the orange blob and the blue accents worry me. I would say it's a fake.

3. Genuine. But I may be biased, seeing as I know where it came from (actually considered bidding on it, but something else popped up I wanted a little more badly and for a better price). The auction house that offered it mentioned tooling, which is probably why the patina sometimes looks a little weird. The coloured, flat spots would have been nice and crusty at some point. Looking at the shape of this knife, it is in my opinion one of the nicest ever issued (the needle and Qi knives excluded of course). The one specimen in my collection (below) is of a similar type, but a little more pointed. The only way its thin yet sturdy handle "flows" into its broader blade, yet not too broad as on the first one, can be described is with the word "elegant". 99% sure it is genuine. I did find the comment Spence made early about the thicker lines quite interesting. Looking forward to what Thomas's opinion is on this one.

Just for fun, I thought I would share my only pointed knife. The only Chinese coin I ever dared purchase via eBay. Although it was actually a auction house/dealer selling some left over stuff. I have provenance dating it back to 1995, where it was sold in a German antique store. But this only tells us it isn't a fake made in the last 20 years. Should you have an opinion, don't hesitate to state it!



This specific variety isn't listed in Hartill. He only spends one or two pages on this arguably the most variety filled area. Coole however, does list a precise calligraphy match. It should most likely be read as "bu", literally meaning "Divination" or something in that category. The actual meaning of many of the characters found on these pointed knives has yet to be established. But I assume Thomas, who has obviously studied this series better than me, might be able to shed some light on it?

4. One of the trickier ones. I would say genuine, but then again, I (perhaps other forum members do as well) know where this currently resides. This picture is, from what I have seen, a little unrepresentative of the real thing. Should a little lighter in colour, the brown bits being nice and coppery. If I am correct, this has been cleaned(or at least partly) somewhere in it's past. Should this be genuine; nice piece Thomas! I haven't had the pleasure of handling it myself, but from the looks of it, it hasn't circulated too much! The excess metal from its casting can still be seen in some places! Unfortunately, this is definitely no guarantee for authenticity. The one reverse line is also something to note. I am leaning towards genuine, but should you have come to the opposite conclusion after studying it in hand, I could understand. Without other data, I would say I am about 80% sure it is genuine.

Keeping my fingers crossed I said something sensible,

Mika
Edited by AnYangMan
11/17/2016 1:00 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 11/17/2016  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are my answers. Yell at me if you want, but these are my opinions of authenticity:

1. Genuine. This is one of the ones I probably wasn't fair with. I wasn't thinking about the vibrance of the patina when I posted it. The patina is indeed unusual for the fact that it is quite uncommon to find patina this nice. The colors are vibrant and strikingly beautiful. Specialists know that this patina is choice and would be prepared to pay a hefty premium for it. However, counterfeiters know this and will try very hard to make the coins look as nice as this, so be careful or just stay away from coins with a very attractive patina.


Quote:
Patina is off, to bright/glossy)


What I mean by glossy is that there is a physical shine/reflectivity to the patina. That is not the case here.

Also, the patina looks like it is a part of the coin, not just flaoting on the surface like most counterfeits. There is some crust to it, and this crust is uneven. Overall, it just looks natural. I don't really know how else to explain why this patina looks "right." It just does (sorry!). Also, I am not an expert on determining genuine/fake patina, so take my comments with a grain of salt.


Quote:
lines are too thick


Also, I was unfair in picking this shape of knife. There is a hefty ridge on the back edge of the knife that acts as a reinforcing backbone. I did not take into account that a 2-D image does not always easily convey a structure that is blatantly obvious in 3-D. Here is a cross-section on the knife if I had cut it in half:



Viewing this in 2-D from the top would create the illusion that the back rim is much thicker than it actually is.

2. Fake. I will just post this here because it is exactly right.


Quote:
It looks like part of the "outer rim" is actually more than slightly raised, which is definitely a bad sign (or the photo is just playing tricks with my eyes). The lines on the handle look dullish, and so does the character. And I can't say I like the colour: It looks pretty grey-ish, not like a copper knife should be. On the other hand, I believe I have seen other metal finds from a waterish environment with a similar patina, so who knows. But the orange blob and the blue accents worry me.


When I was going through new listings on eBay, I saw this and glanced over it. The price was more than I would normally pay, so I didn't pay close attention to it. I initially felt it was genuine. Then I took a gander at the seller's other offerings, and saw that everything else was obviously fake. I then took a closer look at this coin and then saw all of the things that Mika pointed out. If I interpret the pictures correctly, then the rims look thick and rounded, completely unlike sharp rims I keep instisting on. I also noticed on comparison to the other coins here that the lines on the handle are quite soft. As you can see on the other three specimens, the lines on the handle are very distinct and pronounced.

3. Genuine. Again, sorry about the shape (refer to #1). The handle lines are a little thicker than usual, so sorry about that. This coin has your typical crusty patina, with many different colors and gaps where the patina came off when pried off of another knife.

I pulled the images from a Stephen Album auction, so I am pretty confident that this coin is genuine.

4. Genuine. This one is in my collection. The patina looks off because the obverse patina was stripped off, while the reverse patina was allowed to stay. All of the lines and rims are very sharp and defined. I bought this in a Baldwin's auction, so I am pretty sure it is authentic.


Quote:
to skinny and not enough curve


This is one of the latest pointed knives cast, so the shape is normal for that time period. I will work on a progression later.
Edited by TypeCoin971793
11/17/2016 8:33 pm
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 Posted 11/18/2016  05:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, here are the scores:

25% correct () : Finn, Spence, BrenPickle
50% correct (: Echizento, Palouche, NST
75% correct (): AYM

Continued evidence that some of us need additional education before dropping money on these...
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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