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Personally Feel That RCM Has Sunk The NCLT Hobby

 
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Pillar of the Community

Canada
708 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2016  3:25 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JGG to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
A few things that the RCM has done that really irk me. In fact, I believe they have sunk the Canadian NCLT market for these reasons:

1. Over-minting/over-producing coins. This has created a supply glut that is so enormous, that collectors couldn't possibly absorb it all.
2. Reproducing common themes ad nauseum.
3. Liquidating old stock to wholesalers. Although I can't prove this to be the case 100%, I do find it interesting to see a number of wholesalers dealing out large stockpiles of the same coin for 50 cents on the dollar. This hurts retailers, and drastically hurts an investors return on investment.
4. RCM is ignoring customer base. For years now, dealers, investors and collectors have begged the RCM to produce fewer coins and improve their customer service. Neither has occurred, despite the fact that the RCM is very well staffed and fully funded.
5. RCM needs to work with Canada Border Services to build a tax exempt shipping code. I have purchased many RCM items from US dealers and have been charged duties for the items, despite having all paperwork properly filled out. Recovering duties on these items is usually a 6 month process, with no guarantee of success ... and requires a fair bit of diligence.
6. RCM continues to issue themes with little or no semblance to Canadian identity. This starts to feel like a gimmick, rather than something that contributes to our national Heritage.

Anyone else have some thoughts on this? Will they be able to turn things around?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
16851 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2016  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
RCM = FMN (Franklin Mint North).

If you bought just one of each coin minted in a year you would need a very large bankroll.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
6535 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2016  4:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silveroid to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree with everything.
Plus the issue prices. If I really like the coin - well, I will not care, if it popular or not, but I will not buy it from the Mint, but after some period for much less.

btw..check the other forum - collector, who able to buy every coin that RCM issues (and this is huuuge budget), feels absolutely the same, as JGG wrote.
People loose interest due to enormous flood.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2314 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2016  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Check canadian_coins's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add canadian_coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for you post!

There is no doubt that more NCLTs are minted today than 25 years ago... but surprisingly, not that much more. Recently I posted an analysis on CCF that illustrates an interesting trend: while the number of $20 varieties increased 12x, the Mintage/varieties also dropped substantially. The net increase is about 3x. From that perspective the RCM was able to reach more collectors in ways that wouldn't have been possible with only 2 or 3 releases a year.

Understandably, having so many coins issued every year creates problems for collectors but it is mostly financial and we just have to restrict our appetite. There is no way regular folks can "have them all".

So for item #1, over supply existed even 25 years ago. It is perhaps a characteristic that comes with NCLTs and we just have to focus and cherry pick what we like and not so much on what we think will be in demand in the future.

Item #2: With so many releases inevitably you will see the same topic come again, and again. But that in itself isn't such a bad thing. For instance, bird lovers will find interest in those specifically. That brings us back to the first topic. What one collector may not appreciate could potentially appeal to others which is precisely what the RCM is thinking. Is this approach sustainable? That's the question.

Item #3: The problem of coin dumping dates back to the 90's. I'm actually not sure if I care because I do not perceive the hobby as an investment. I'm obviously happy to make a good deal, but I'm able to sustain the eventual financial losses.

Item #4: For me, quality is the main issue I have with the RCM. Dirty capsules, aggressive frost, pits and scratches are unacceptable for the price we pay. One note: The RCM may be well funded (thanks to repeated profits) but from what I see they aren't "fully" staffed... let's add a few more in the quality department...

Item #5: Yes I agree this may be a problem. It is unfair to Canadians to pay duty on their own products. As a seller I always write "made in Canada" on the form. This seems to work.

Item #6: You might be referring to Batman / Superman and such. I think this is part of the NCLT spectrum that we have to accept and live with. It does feel like a gimmick and that's why our prerogative is to ignore - or wait to get the coin on the secondary market for 1/2 the price...


A picture is worth a thousand words.
Edited by canadian_coins
12/26/2016 8:31 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2341 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2016  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuh_85 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very true. That's why I made 2014 my last full year of collecting and just picked up the odd 2015/2016 on the secondary market to continue a series or because I really liked it. Most of the 2016s I didn't even look at and am completely ignoring 2017.
New Member
United States
27 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2016  1:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jonesdav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very true. I used to order several coins a month. Now I order several coins a year. Maybe none next year. As mentioned by canian_coin, buying coins from RCM is not an investment. It won't worth what you pay today after ten years, but at least you own them for ten years as hobby
Valued Member
Canada
458 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2016  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bigchip22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yes to many of them around I prefer the old traditional coins of years ago to most of this modern crap
Valued Member
Canada
475 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2016  06:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmc to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its Tuesday....lets make a coin to commemorate it
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
Australia
7096 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2016  07:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trout1105 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The RAM ( Royal Australian Mint) is pretty much on a par with RCM.
The sheer volume of different coins issued and the irrelevance of many of the themes is staggering.
With the exception of the Mint sets the Quality however is pretty good and the Proof coins have always been outstanding quality and this continues.
Then there are the dodgy marketing strategies that RAM employs that add to the problems for Aussie collectors.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
980 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2017  07:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add purelywasted to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would agree, my primary goals are not investing, but with most issues dropping by 30%-50% within a couple months, I stopped purchasing around 2013-14. I love some of the designs, but will wait until they are 2-3 years old and pick some up for a little over bullion value. If I don't not too concerned. RCM definitely killed NCLT for me.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1445 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2017  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Check Andrew99's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Andrew99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
6. RCM continues to issue themes with little or no semblance to Canadian identity. This starts to feel like a gimmick, rather than something that contributes to our national Heritage.


Superman doesn't make you think of Canada?
The collection is in your mind. Dispose of your albums and free your mind from the tyranny of holes.
Valued Member
Canada
176 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2017  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thehulk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another good point by Andrew99 there, the RCM is pumping out lots of licensed coins lately (Bugs Bunny, Superman, Batman, Star Trek, etc...). I stopped buying NCLT a while back and have been selling some of what I have left on eBay lately. The only thing I kept going was the 20 for 20 series, and even that I was wondering if I'd bother to keep up with. Thankfully it looks like the RCM has cancelled the face value series so that decision has been made for me!

A couple of things killed my interest in RCM NCLT. First was the drastic price increases earlier this decade when silver went on a tear. Silver has dropped back down since then, but the prices haven't. Plus most of these coins can be had on the secondary market for considerably less than issue price.

I now collect things like world silver bullion, world crown size coins, and starting to branch out into world gold coins. Things that appeal to my love of history, a lot of which can be bought closer to spot. I'm honestly not sure I'll ever place an order on mint.ca again.
Valued Member
Canada
413 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2017  7:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add unruhjonny to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I whole-heartedly agree with the first post.
Valued Member
Canada
107 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2017  7:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mikesnickname to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
+1 I agree with you all.

There is just way too much. Either reduce the product selection or reduce your mintages. In the long run, less is more. However, the RCM is just looking for short term bad profit.

I like the design of the new piedfort, but will be passing on it because I feel the mintage is too high. Reduce mintage to 3000 and I'd be all over it.

Pillar of the Community
Canada
2661 Posts
 Posted 01/12/2017  7:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I gave up on the 20 for 20 when the designs became cartoons. I may still get an RCM product but with the huge number of kinds now issued with themes having nothing to do with Canada, collector fatigue has set in, and much of the product has essentially become giftware for the non-collector.

I may also add that then quality of the mint sets is very poor; I will not likely get one again in the near future. The proof sets at least have maintained their excellent quality but sadly not excellent prices.
Valued Member
Canada
134 Posts
 Posted 01/13/2017  12:51 am  Show Profile   Check Wandering Eskimo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Wandering Eskimo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Question here... years ago, when a coin was not popular, RCM either did not produce it's intended quantities and/or melted unsold portions of their mintages.

Is this still the case?

It would seem, given all of the crazy discounts and sales from resellers, that rather than cancel production and/or melt unsold coins, the RCM has a new protocol that dictates deep-discount disposal to resellers.


Quote:
There is just way too much. Either reduce the product selection or reduce your mintages


I 100% agree here - and this got me thinking... maybe "flippers" play an informal role in maintaining prices long-term? Provided no single flipper has control of the marketplace (with a large inventory, thus artificially affecting demand), and supply-side production quantities from the RCM are lower, could flippers not benefit the hobby? Basic economics would apply - supply meets (or is closer to) demand - with prices stabilizing and/or increasing on popular coins.

In standing back and reading all of the conversations from the past few years, it seems like everyone was much more positive and engaged in the hobby when we weren't losing our shorts with rapid devaluation of our purchases (due to over-production). When there was tons of chatter about flipping on the forums, everyone seemed to be positive (except for the few that "didn't" get the latest release, which again - based on economics - was great for ensuring price stability on purchases.

I look back to prior years' purchases and laugh... there's no way - given present market conditions and the removal of the X for X program - that my purchases will ever be at previous levels unless things straighten out on the "economics side" of things.
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