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 Replies: 34 / Views: 2,963 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
The PCGS EF-45, CAC is over graded by at least 10 points. I'd call it a VF-30. The AU-58 graded piece is OK if it has some luster under the toning. Here is a Mint State coin to give this discussion some perspective about how the Flying Eagle design looked when it was new. This is now an NGC MS-64.   Edited by billjones
02/14/2017 08:10 am
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11898 Posts |
I don't believe that the coin graded by PCGS and reaffirmed by CAC is overgraded. This is what a PCGS VF30 actually looks like.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
Yea, and that PCGS VF-30 is over graded. It's got corrosion spots that lower the grade by at least 10 points. I'd net grade that coin to Fine because of them. In fact I would have expected that coin to get a body bag in the old days before "grade-flation."
As for the PCGS - CAC combination, don't be a Kool Aid drinker. CAC gets it right probably 95% of the time, but they should be closer to 100%. All they have to do is say "yes" (blue sticker) "YES!" (gold sticker) or "no." (no sticker). That is not a hard job. They can decline to sticker the coin with no big blow backs. A grading company can't decline to pass judgement on a coin very often without losing their customer base.
It does not compare with the responsibility that a full service grading company has, which includes authentication (huge), signs of coin doctoring, perhaps a variety attribution and a grade. That's a lot harder than just approving of something. When CAC puts out a CAC brand grading holder, I will be more impressed with them.
Edited by billjones
02/14/2017 09:45 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Two professional graders affirmed the grade of the coin. I have also looked at hundreds of raw and slabbed FECs recently. The coin graded XF45 by PCGS and cac is perfectly consistent with what I see being graded at that level. I think many on CCF are quality conscious and only seek the top 1% of coins within a grade. That says a lot about the quality standards of the folks here. But there is still the other 99% which still makes the grade. I don't drink the TPG cool-aid as I make my own personal determination about whether a slabbed coin merits its grade. And then I often come here to get other opinions. I don't blindly follow others' opinions. I make up my own mind. Thank you for your thoughts. Although we don't always agree, I have learned a great deal from you. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
Well, as they say about horses, "You can lead them to water ..."
In the mean time you need to learn about grading and think for yourself. The acid test is when you try sell a coin and see what happens. It doesn't matter much what the grading service says at that point unless you are selling the over graded coin at a deep discount under Gray Sheet bid. Just because two grading services have rendered an opinion does not make it right.
One of things that both PCGS and NGC did very early in the game was to water down the standards for circulated coins. They once were more strict with the Mint State grades because that was where the high dollar abuses were when those companies were founded. Now they are getting lose with them too.
And yes, I'll emphasize the point. That PCGS flyer you posted in VF-30 is way over graded. Corrosion spots do matter, especially if they are active, those spots might be. Maybe they have formed after the coin was slabbed, but if they didn't, they missed it.
Edited by billjones
02/14/2017 10:59 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Quote:
Well, as they about horses, "You can lead them to water ..."
In the mean time you need to learn about grading and think for yourself. Really intetesting that you say you want me to think for myself, and at the same time want me to agree with you with that water and horses comment. Confused about what the advice is here really. I think I will go with door number 2 and learn about grading and think for myself as I always have. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
Well, go out and try to sell some coins. That's the way I learned when I was a teenager. My point is don't believe everything the services tell you about a specific coin.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
I think your advice is 100% correct. You shouldn't rely on TPG opinions. I have come here with many slabbed coins to get folks' opinions about the grade. I think your repeated accusations that I blindly follow the TPG grade without exercising my own judgment because you disagree with the grade on the slab are unfounded. If you had instead said that I am a terrible grader, and that I don't know what I am doing, well then you may have a point.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
02/14/2017 1:52 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
AU-58 for me, very nice..  |
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Valued Member
United States
304 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
11922 Posts |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
It's no secret that PCGS and NGC are terrible at grading FEC's and IHC's, Rick Snow has published plenty of articles with many detailed examples of how they are butchering the grading on a daily basis. Using their images as a grading guide for the two series is like expecting to become a fleet admiral in the Navy just by playing Battleship. Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Can we at least agree that the coin in the original post is not VF35? I also find PCGS photograde to be an excellent grading resource that has largely replaced grading coin sets. PCGS is not perfect and you can always find examples of mistakes. For the most part, I think they get it right and deserve to be the market grading standard.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1499 Posts |
I would recommend a later edition ANA grading guide with photos of the coins. I have also heard that the grading book by Q. David Bowers is quite good. The last PCGS grading guide that I bought only had photos of some of the coins, not all. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
I think the reason for the incomplete PCGS print photos may be because they, like everything else is moving to online and app resources. Makes it easier to update on the fly and tons of information is at your fingertips.
I think complete 3D imaging of all three surfaces of coins and unique identification of coins via algorithmic rendering of 3D images will come soon. When this comes, it will be much more difficult to pass off counterfeits, double count resubmitted coins, and computers will grade coins based on much more exact measures.
Lots of old problems will be solved and I am sure many new ones will pop up.
Fun times to come.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
02/15/2017 1:49 pm
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Replies: 34 / Views: 2,963 |
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Posted 02/14/2017 09:30 am
