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Help With History Of This Prussian Coin.

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 1,438Next Topic  
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2017  04:28 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add vman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi,

I was going through my family's coin collection and one particular coin I need help with. I did some investigation on my own and so far I found out that this coin is from Prussia 1783 I believe. However on the flip side of the coin where you would expect to see 1/12 of thaler there's a different emblem that after lots of digging I found comes from Poland of the same period. How could that happen? Any historians out there that may shed some light on this? Sorry for the quality of the images. Hope you can see enough.



Edited by vman
03/16/2017 04:32 am
Valued Member
Canada
199 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2017  08:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rockfish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is it copper? 12 Einen Thaler should be silver.
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2017  08:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes it is a copper coin. I was only guessing that it's 12 einen thaler as it was the only similar coin I found on Internet.
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2017  08:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Copper is 24 einen Thaler. I should've done my research better!
Valued Member
Germany
303 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2017  3:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Potsdam to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nope. 1/24 Thaler is billon actually, although the alloys back then were sometimes pretty bad.

The averse clearly looks like 1/24 Thaler or 1/48 Thaler (compare with the one the bottom here: http://oldgermancoins.com/prussia-124-thaler/), but the reverse reminds me of Polish grossus (Groschen/Grosz) coins.

There are several possibilites now...

1. It could be a contemporary error of someone mixing up the dies. However, Prussian 1/24 Thalers and 1/48 Thalers were in Poland minted in Königsberg and I cannot think of any reason why they would have had Polish dies over there.

2. It could be some kind of contemporary private production, made as a souvenir.

3. It could as well be a modern counterfeit. The bubbly surface looks to me as if this one was casted.

Personally, I think option #2 is the most likely one...

Edit: I'll check my catalogue later. If I'm not wrong, Prussia did actually mint Groschen coins in West Prussia that look like the reverse of yours... They were also made of copper if I remember correctly. Could you please provide size and weight of your coin?
Edited by Potsdam
03/16/2017 3:11 pm
Pillar of the Community
Poland
3201 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2017  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DL20K to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know nothing, but according to the catalog, the Polish 1 grossus (1 grosz) copper coins with that style of "G" (below the wreath) were minted from 1765 till 1768 in Cracow.

So the distance between this and the 1/48 Prussian thaler 1780s piece is quite considerable both time- and distance-wise.
New Member
United Kingdom
4 Posts
 Posted 03/16/2017  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add vman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I weighed the coin at 2 grams. My scales are bad with no decimal points at all. Diameter of 20mm.


I also lean towards the probability that it is a souvenir. I guess I will never find out for sure.
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United States
9121 Posts
 Posted 03/18/2017  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is possibly an agricultural medalet or small medal of the type awarded in country fairs, many of which feature a themed reverse with an obverse that refers to the local figure of authority (duke, archduke, prince, elector, etc.)
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
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Valued Member
Lithuania
363 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2017  02:51 am  Show Profile   Check giedrius's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add giedrius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
IMHO, this is the Polish token:
unknown to me initials ER on obverse (perhaps the Russian Empress Catherine the Great (Ekaterina in Russian),
reverse -common Polish copper pre-1768 groat of Krakow mint
Catalogue of Lithuanian half-groats 1495-1529 http://goccf.com/t/282866
Edited by giedrius
04/02/2017 06:14 am
Valued Member
Germany
303 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2017  11:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Potsdam to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its FR actually, for Fredericus Rex (therefore Prussia).
Edited by Potsdam
04/02/2017 11:53 am
Valued Member
Lithuania
363 Posts
 Posted 04/03/2017  12:38 pm  Show Profile   Check giedrius's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add giedrius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
https://www. (168) Not Allowed - Auto-Removed ro/catalog-monede/polonia/stanislaw-august-poniatowski-1764-1795/1-grosz-1783-fantezie-7299
http://www.omnicoin.com/coin/1004067
Catalogue of Lithuanian half-groats 1495-1529 http://goccf.com/t/282866
Pillar of the Community
Poland
3201 Posts
 Posted 04/03/2017  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DL20K to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, looks like it's more common than one might think.

The first link says it's a fake/fantasy.
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