Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Maria Theresa Thaler 1780.... Restrike?

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 4,416Next Topic  
New Member

Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  10:27 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello guys.

I came across this thaler in good shape and was wondering if this was a restrike. Apparently all these MT Thalers were struck as 1780 and there were 800 million of them made.

If somebody could come up with a ballpark figure on what it's worth it would be cool too!

Thanks a bunch!





Pillar of the Community
Poland
3201 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  10:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DL20K to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Certainly not the 1780 version.

Compare here: http://www.theresia.name/en/svergleich.html

But it doesn't look like a 'regular' restrike either. The reeded edge (normally there is text on the edge), the size of the eagle (normally the feathers are much closer to the text), the style of the lettering is very crude...

Weight?
Pillar of the Community
Norway
1358 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add UltraRant to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I got a feeling that we might be dealing with a Chinese/African interpretation of the Thaler here, but we need the weight and dimensions to be more sure. Apart from what DL20K already points out, I find a few other things a bit puzzling:

- the portrait seems to be very far from the edge compared to what it should be
- both obverse and reverse seem very worn, and most detail seems faded, except for the text. I find that a remarkable feat. The same text seems a bit chaotic, as if it's hand-made instead of machine made. That's unlike the Thaler.
- there's some weird black stuff coming through at places where the wear is heaviest. As we're dealing with a silver coin, that shouldn't be. Not like that.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1575 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  1:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rotated for a more proper view...

Definitely not a normal restrike - very crude in general. Perhaps more Middle East/Africa, rather than Chinese, but that's the right idea.

Doesn't matter specifically for this coin (since it is what it is anyway), but that dark stuff on some of the high points may be more grime in this case rather than plating/silvering wearing off.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
9474 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  2:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with UltraRant. At least the restrikes are of high quality, better detail and made of silver. Most restrikes don't get a lot of wear and this looks like one of the intentionally made to look circulated Chinese fake coins.
I have a BU and a Proof restrike to compare.







My favorite album!
Image hosting is provided by CCF. Thank you for your generosity!
World's Fair Exposition Medals and Tickets
http://www.coincommunity.org/galler...p?album=2020
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Greetings to all!

Thanks for your thoughts, they are valued! I have been trying to wrap my head around this for a while and couldn't have come up with what you guys posted! THANKS!

I was offered to buy this and was rather taken by the wear of the coin..... at least I know it's old. But I'm not much for these thalers, also there were as many as 800 million coins made! Hardly worth a shot in the dark!

Thanks again guys!
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as I know, all genuine original and restrike MTTs have a lettered edge so the presence of reeding on your coin should be an indication of a fake.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
9474 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Chinese make both new looking fakes as well as those that look circulated.
My favorite album!
Image hosting is provided by CCF. Thank you for your generosity!
World's Fair Exposition Medals and Tickets
http://www.coincommunity.org/galler...p?album=2020
Pillar of the Community
United States
1575 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2017  11:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think there's a little disconnect here...

Crude "local" imitations of the typical restrike Maria Theresas have been produced in the 20th Century in the areas where these restrikes have actually circulated - Africa & the Arabian peninsula. I believe that's what UltraRant was getting at... and that's what I was saying about this piece.

The styling on this piece is SO crude such that it suggests it might be one of those... Of course the "authentic restrikes" have lettered edges...so this is certainly wrong. Looking more at that edge, though... it does seem more in the style of Chinese modern fake production. The crude design/lettering might just be a holdover from the era of horrible Asian fakes ca. 2005 which happens to mimic what a contemporary counterfeit can often look like.

Additionally, I'm going to cheat by observing that with everything else the OP has been posting - a lot of modern fake/replica types - this could in fact be a relatively recent Asian (poor) replica/fake.
Edited by realeswatcher
05/02/2017 11:59 pm
New Member
Australia
31 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2017  09:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gunstar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK..... so fake casting of a sanctioned restrike, along with the many versions and copies out there?

I think I'll stick to what I know...... Thanks again for all your opinions.

Even though I am posting lots of fakes to be assessed, I am contributing to the community by giving examples of the fakes out there. I am certainly trying to avoid buying them! Being a new collector I find the expertise and experience of others to be far more reliable than my own discretion for the time being. I am learning a great deal and I thank you all!
Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2017  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The example at the start of the thread is Chinese made fake. It's an early type of fake of about the 1980s perhaps a little earlier. Middle eastern African counterfeits usually date to the 19th century( at least the ones I have seen)
Edited by austrokiwi
05/04/2017 08:50 am
Pillar of the Community
Belgium
505 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2017  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gwyde to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Minting rights for the MT thaler 1780X restrike have been licensed by the Austrian mint for 25 years to Italy and later also to France, Belgium and the UK.

Legal restrikes comply with the required weight and silver fineness (0.833), while the edge reads: "Justitia et Clementia".

Any MT with a reeded edge by definition is a fake.

Licensing expired decades ago and only the Austrian mint continues minting MT 1780X restrikes, both in proof and in BU.

You find much more on this old thread:

http://goccf.com/t/139072

It's also useful to read the wiki page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Theresa_thaler
Edited by Gwyde
05/04/2017 10:58 am
Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2017  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Minting rights for the MT thaler 1780X restrike have been licensed by the Austrian mint for 25 years to Italy and later also to France, Belgium and the UK.

Legal restrikes comply with the required weight and silver fineness (0.833), while the edge reads: "Justitia et Clementia".

Any MT with a reeded edge by definition is a fake.

Licensing expired decades ago and only the Austrian mint continues minting MT 1780X restrikes, both in proof and in BU.


That statement needs some correction: Only Italy was granted the 25-year concession to Mint MTT. Under international convention, the French, and English argued that granting the licence to Italy actually saw Austria give up the "traditional" right to the coin. They had given up the legal right by failing to include the MTT in the monetary laws established when the 1st Austrian Republic was formed The brits went on to state ( I have copies of the legal opinion made at the time)That it was perfectly legal for them to produce the coin so long as it wasn't for use in Austria or an Italian possession.

Belgium actually only produced the coin for Samuel Montagu and co( A British banking house) which traded the coins on the London Bullion market( and sold them to the Royal Airforce for use in Oman in the 1950s

Legal restrike is poor terminology as a Restrike is legal.. if it wasn't it would be a counterfeit ( Even if of the correct weight and alloy).

Edited by austrokiwi
05/05/2017 12:11 am
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
9395 Posts
 Posted 05/05/2017  10:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If (as Britain claims) Austria gave up the traditional rights to the coin, does this mean that modern Asian fakes would be legal restrikes (except in Austria or Italy)?
Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts
 Posted 05/06/2017  12:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If (as Britain claims) Austria gave up the traditional rights to the coin, does this mean that modern Asian fakes would be legal re-strikes (except in Austria or Italy)?


The legal opinion I referred to was written in 1935 and was applicable then. After 1960, by which time France Belgium and the UK had stopped producing the MTT (at Austria's request), the UK and other countries formally recognized the MTT as an Austrian coin. It is now illegal in those countries to produce it. Furthermore, the Austrians corrected the mistake they made at the end of the first world war and the MTT is again written into their coinage laws ensuring internationally the coin is regarded as Austrian. I haven't fully confirmed it but it seems the MTT is the one coin that should result in Chinese Authorities successfully prosecuting their "manufacturers" of the coin as it is a "current" coin
Edited by austrokiwi
05/06/2017 12:32 am
  Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 4,416Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.





Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2021 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2021 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.69 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05