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Pillar of the Community
United States
750 Posts |
That's a real nice double cud! Thanks for adding that one.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
750 Posts |
This is an 1859 cent that I think should qualify as a retained cud. Here is a photo of part of the reverse from leaves 13-16. It is a late state Haxby PC59-77a1. There is a lot of lateral displacement at the leaf 16 side of the retained cud.   |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
761 Posts |
Hi Phil310, Nice coin but in this state would this not be referred to as a retained broken die?
I was under the impression if a die with a retained break was to continue in use it would or could become displaced and then create a cud.
I'm certainly not challenging your judgement on this as I know very little on the subject I only ask to get a clearer understanding of this for myself.
Cheers, Bill
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Moderator
Canada
8837 Posts |
 with Hounddog here... retained broken die is what I would call that one.
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von BraunContent of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_USMy eBay store
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Pillar of the Community
United States
750 Posts |
Thanks for the clarification of terms on this one Houndog and SPP. I'm still trying to figure out the correct way to describe these. I was basing my call on the definition on the "cuds on coins" website of a "retained cud" as a coin with a die crack from rim to rim with vertical or lateral displacement. But "retained broken die" sounds a lot more accurate. Thanks! Would this one I posted earlier in this thread also be considered a retained broken die? I would assume so as long as there is still some coin design to show the broken part is retained.  Edited by Phil310
06/13/2018 11:04 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
25115 Posts |
Yep, that would be considered a Retained Cud, since there's some detail left and the piece hasn't completely broken away yet. Nice find and congratulations!
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961 Machine Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638 Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470Split Plate Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/3576142000 P LMC With Retained Struck Through error. http://goccf.com/t/357080 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
750 Posts |
I'm beginning to think that this is one of those terms that differ between U.S. and Canadian collectors.
It seems the U.S. collectors refer to it as a "retained cud" while the Canadian collectors refer to it as a "retained broken die".
Since I'm a U.S. collector of Canadian cents, I'm a little confused. I have to say that "retained broken die" actually sounds more accurate, since it is part of the die that is "retained" and the "cud" or "retained cud" is what appears on the coin as a result.
I would welcome any comments as to which of these terms you like and why.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
761 Posts |
"Since I'm a U.S. collector of Canadian cents, I'm a little confused. I have to say that "retained broken die" actually sounds more accurate, since it is part of the die that is "retained" and the "cud" or "retained cud" is what appears on the coin as a result."
I would agree with this statement.
I have always believed that a cud is the result of a broken die and created when the coin is struck.
If the broken die is retained then there is no cud produced once the retained portion shifts enough and moves to a different level then the rest of the die then a cud will be produced.
To me the term retained cud doesn't make any sense and is misleading to what actually happens, you can retain a broken die in a position to create a cud or the piece can be dislodged completely and produce a cud but I would never call either a retained cud.
Just my opinion.
Cheers, Bill
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
12382 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
750 Posts |
That's a nice one Dorado! It's a very late state of the I3 reverse die. Haxby die pair PC59-412.
Thanks for sharing it!
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Moderator
Canada
8837 Posts |
I picked this one up in October, from a dealer in southern Ontario. This one is now my oldest small cent error coin. A nice die break with cud, in a decent AU grade.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
750 Posts |
That is a fantastic cud Roger, and on the obverse side! Do you know if large cuds are more often seen on the obverse or reverse on small cents?
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Moderator
Canada
8837 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1591 Posts |
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Valued Member
Canada
141 Posts |
Edited by Dollar 1935
01/28/2020 01:05 am
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Posted 06/12/2018 7:08 pm
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