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cuds on Canadian coins

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
531 Posts
 Posted 06/12/2018  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a real nice double cud! Thanks for adding that one.
Pillar of the Community
United States
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 Posted 06/12/2018  7:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is an 1859 cent that I think should qualify as a retained cud. Here is a photo of part of the reverse from leaves 13-16. It is a late state Haxby PC59-77a1.

There is a lot of lateral displacement at the leaf 16 side of the retained cud.


Pillar of the Community
Canada
593 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2018  08:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Phil310, Nice coin but in this state would this not be referred to as a retained broken die?
I was under the impression if a die with a retained break was to continue in use it would or could become displaced and then create a cud.
Iím certainly not challenging your judgement on this as I know very little on the subject I only ask to get a clearer understanding of this for myself.

Cheers, Bill
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Canada
7974 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2018  09:46 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with Hounddog here... retained broken die is what I would call that one.
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Pillar of the Community
United States
531 Posts
 Posted 06/13/2018  10:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the clarification of terms on this one Houndog and SPP. I'm still trying to figure out the correct way to describe these.

I was basing my call on the definition on the "cuds on coins" website of a "retained cud" as a coin with a die crack from rim to rim with vertical or lateral displacement. But "retained broken die" sounds a lot more accurate.

Thanks!

Would this one I posted earlier in this thread also be considered a retained broken die? I would assume so as long as there is still some coin design to show the broken part is retained.

Edited by Phil310
06/13/2018 11:04 am
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United States
12032 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2018  04:32 am  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep, that would be considered a Retained Cud, since there's some detail left and the piece hasn't completely broken away yet. Nice find and congratulations!
Errers and Varietys
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United States
531 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2018  07:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm beginning to think that this is one of those terms that differ between U.S. and Canadian collectors.

It seems the U.S. collectors refer to it as a "retained cud" while the Canadian collectors refer to it as a "retained broken die".

Since I'm a U.S. collector of Canadian cents, I'm a little confused. I have to say that "retained broken die" actually sounds more accurate, since it is part of the die that is "retained" and the "cud" or "retained cud" is what appears on the coin as a result.

I would welcome any comments as to which of these terms you like and why.

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Canada
593 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2018  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Since I'm a U.S. collector of Canadian cents, I'm a little confused. I have to say that "retained broken die" actually sounds more accurate, since it is part of the die that is "retained" and the "cud" or "retained cud" is what appears on the coin as a result."

I would agree with this statement.
I have always believed that a cud is the result of a broken die and created when the coin is struck.
If the broken die is retained then there is no cud produced once the retained portion shifts enough and moves to a different level then the rest of the die then a cud will be produced.
To me the term retained cud doesn't make any sense and is misleading to what actually happens, you can retain a broken die in a position to create a cud or the piece can be dislodged completely and produce a cud but I would never call either a retained cud.
Just my opinion.

Cheers, Bill
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Canada
4624 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2018  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dorado to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1859 Canada
1 cent.

-

Pillar of the Community
United States
531 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2018  8:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a nice one Dorado! It's a very late state of the I3 reverse die. Haxby die pair PC59-412.

Thanks for sharing it!
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