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1917-D Lincoln Cent - Dmm? Metal Flow? Get My Eyes Checked?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 673Next Topic  
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 Posted 01/31/2018  12:39 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I'm not sure what (if anything) this is.

The coin is a generic 1917-D Lincoln cent, grading a solid, but unexciting, G. Look SW of the mint mark. What is this? I don't see any PMD that would explain this. My best guess is metal flow, but I'd welcome everyone's opinions.

Here is the date, mm, and field SW of the mm:



Here is the detail of the mm and field SW of the mm:



What is that in the field? It's remarkably "D" shaped, and is oriented correctly for a mint mark, but it is far too large for a Lincoln Cent Denver mint mark and well out of place.

I'm torn between metal flow and I really need to see my optometrist. Thoughts?
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 Posted 01/31/2018  12:47 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see what you are referencing. It really isn't larger than the actual MM by much, if at all.

It could have been an errant punch that was polished away or it could be Pareidolia.

This is roughly what I see. I drew it with my finger on my phone:

In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020

Oh that I was where I would be,
Then I would be where I am not,
Here I am where I must be,
Go where I would, I can not.
Edited by spruett001
01/31/2018 12:56 am
Rest in Peace
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 Posted 01/31/2018  01:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It may be an old worn off reversed coin contact from a D in GOD. Would be more the size and shape, think also of Barbers and Buffalos
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 Posted 01/31/2018  1:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it were a mint mark, it would be raised.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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1918 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2018  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had some time today to look at the coin in sunlight. (Before the clouds rolled in and it turned cold.) The "D" shape is visible to the unaided eye when the coin is tilted.

I used both my 2x2 and 10x jeweler's loupe and looked at the surface of the coin from a low angle. The shape appears to be raised slightly (very slightly) above the field. To confirm this, I did the old trick of placing a aluminum foil on the coin and rubbing gently with a Q-Tip. The image appeared on the foil, again faintly. When a toothpick is dragged gently across the area, there is a very slight "bump" when it reaches the shape. None of that is real proof, but it isn't inconsistent with it being raised.

At 100x, the contact mark on the NE corner of the shape is interesting. It is barely noticeable in the field, but becomes much more pronounced when it encounters the "D" shape. I could be wrong on this, but I think if the shape were incuse, the contact mark would be more evident in the field and the shape would be somewhat more protected.

I'm not convinced that this is a mint mark. The size and location suggest otherwise, even for the punch-happy mint workers of this era. That said, it seems to be something. For the life of me, though, I don't know what that something would be. I don't have the camera equipment to snag better photos.

A couple questions:
(1) Does anybody have a 1917-D that shows anything similar in this location? If so, would you be willing to post a pic?
(2) Is this worth shipping to John Wexler for his review?

I'm still puzzled by this one. I'm inclined to think it isn't anything, but there's still that nagging thought that what if it is something and I walk away. (There's a country western song in there somewhere . . .)

Thank you all for your pondering and input. I appreciate this forum and the experience and wise counsel on the forum.
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 Posted 02/01/2018  1:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a listed separate RPM:

Looks like the person who placed the mint mark punch on this one, thought it was too low and moved it up a bit, or accidentally miss punched the die. But again, you have to be able to see it.

Another one that is below the mint mark that is very weak.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
02/01/2018 1:43 pm
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 Posted 02/01/2018  3:46 pm  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
When I look at that second pic, I keep tilting my phone screen as if that's going to give a better lighting angle.
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020

Oh that I was where I would be,
Then I would be where I am not,
Here I am where I must be,
Go where I would, I can not.
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 Posted 02/01/2018  3:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shotgung to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
need to see my optometrist

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 Posted 02/01/2018  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Note my first image. Note how small the RPM mint mark is? That is because just part of the punch was used. When the punch is hammered deeper and deeper, the the mint mark widens out and get taller. So if you see a 'D' the same size as your mint mark, it can't be that. It would be like the examples I posted above where the mint mark is small until it is punched deeper into the die.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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1918 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2018  12:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop, the more I ponder this coin, the less I think it could be a mint mark. Everything you point out about the secondary mint marks is spot on, and this coin can't be that. It just doesn't fit.

It kept bugging me, though, about what could cause a raised mark in this spot.

Here's the best I could come up with. Whatever this thing is, the shape is very slightly raised above the field. A raised element on a coin seems to have only two possible origins: a design element or die damage. This doesn't look like a real mint mark and sure isn't anywhere near where a mint mark should be. It obviously isn't part of the rest of the design. That logically would leave die damage as the explanation.

Just for the sake of speculation, is the following scenario plausible?

1. The die started out as a normal 1917-D die.

2. Somewhere well upstream of this coin, a foreign object made the fatal mistake of finding itself between the hammer die and a planchet. Maybe a small washer? Metal shaving? The hammer die struck the object (and planchet), likely creating a whale of a struck through error coin. In the process, the hammer die was damaged.

3. Mint workers spotted the damage, probably very quickly, and polished the die down to eliminate the damage. The damage, however, was deeper than the polishing that obscured it on the die. The result was a serviceable die that went on to have a decent die life. David Lange states that dies in this era (he was referring to 1913, but it's close enough) produced about 150,000 coins.

4. As the die wore down, the polished area that obscured the damage wore away. Eventually, the deepest part of the original damage was now a very shallow surface feature on the die. This produced the faint shadow of the shape of the original damage, and that's what is visible on this coin.

If correct, this coin would be an interesting curiosity, and nothing more. It wouldn't be collectible, but would at least be a conversation piece to discuss the minting process and die wear.

That's the best speculation I can come up with.

Thoughts?
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