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Contemporary counterfeit Mexico 1862 Zs-VL 1 real

 
 
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Pillar of the Community

United States
1622 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2018  12:22 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
My second contemporary cap and rays 1 real. It is underweight and has a rudimentary edge design (sorry again for not having a fully clear close-up of the edge, iphone photography problems). Material appears to be brass and the bright yellow color peeks out in some areas.




Edited by Numismat
05/15/2018 12:25 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
1438 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2018  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice rare coin. Same rarity scale as the Portraits when compared to other denominations the Cap and Rays as anticipated.

Increasing rarity left to right: 8R-2R-4R-1/2 & 1R's.

Still a decade or so away from being appreciated by top Mexican numismatists due to several factors. Gurney's next book will help of course.

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
05/15/2018 4:57 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1622 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2018  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks John. A book like the one for portraits, but on cap and rays would be awesome :)
Pillar of the Community
United States
1350 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2018  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Numismat, email Bob directly about this type. There are a HUGE amount of these 1860s dates (with little to no apparent silvering, as on your piece) - most typically Go mint, also Mo and Zs as w/yours.

I've read several places that there was a buried hoard of these discovered at one point (similar to the ubiquitous 1833 Honduras copper 2R), which is the source of many of these on the market. I know Bob is one of said places - ask him directly. I also distinctly remember reading some reference to horses, horse breeding, or some other equine connection with either the discovery or manufacture of these, but forgot to save the exact ref.

The key with these 1860s types (1870 date also) is to find them with silvering and/or not in icky ground find condition.

That piece you showed a few weeks back (crude... Zs I think?) was a MUCH nicer piece. I was watching the lot and then missed it that day.

----------

So, John, 1/2R and 1R CCs of Cap & Ray are quite scarce - but definitively PRE-1860, as these form a huge bloc. Also, 4R simply HAVE to be the scarcest denom. - you NEVER see them (unlike, say, Bolivia 4 Soles). Occasionally you see some bronzey-type ca. 1870s (often fictional dates)... and then a few more 1870s 50 centavos - but NEVER earlier date 4R.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1350 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2018  4:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There have a been many scattered threads on these through the years on here... Hard to search them because people describe them in varying ways, so hard to zero in on a proper keyword search.

From Bob:
http://goccf.com/t/54677

Quote:
There was a large hoard of counterfeit cores striped of their silver that was found in Mexico on the site of a former silver reclaimation facility operated by the government of Mexico until about 1910. The group responsible for the discovery is still rather secretive about the find because the location may be on Government owned land. I have never been able to pin down a location and most stories are NOT firsthand. When pressed the stories become more vague. From what I have pieced together, the discovery included 1000s of coins from 1/2R to 8R and decimals from 5c to Peso. They were found in containers buried in a dump site. The latest date that I have seen attributed to this hoard is 1909. Some early republican coins have been included in groups however, the condition of those coins never matches the later dates. I have yet to see a coin dated in the 1840s that can be safely attributed to the hoard. I have been buying coins from this hoard for years and I have come to recognize what they look like by material - condition - and design.

In my opinion the vast majority of these were local Mexican products produced by numerous facilities. However, within the hoard are others (mostly brass) which use French letter fonts and are likely European imports. Very few coins have any of the original surface intact. Some show evidence of surface filing to display the details and remove high point corrosion.


http://goccf.com/t/258950
***MY NOTE - the button types are usually a bit "crisper" in terms of die style - perhaps French-made? - but also not really trying to be exact copies. However, sometimes you see these unquestionably "counterfeit coin" types repurposed as buttons...

Quote:
What you have is probably a contemporary circulating counterfeit 1 Reale. Based on appearance it is second republic and perhaps Guanajuato. These copper counterfeits are very common and without a date it is of little value. The context of where it was located may be of more interest than the coin itself. These were locally produced and did not tend to get outside of Mexico. A large number of these have been on the market since the 1990s the result of a discovery of a disposal area being discovered. Found in a dump associated with a silver refinery ruin (on Federal lands) - the hoard of counterfeits were chemically treated (about 1910-15) to remove the silver electroplate. The leftover copper cores were buried in metal barrels and other containers to dispose of them.

The second possibility would be a button. In the last quarter of the nineteenth century buttons resembling coins were in fashion. I would look for a trace of a loop being removed. Replica one reale sized buttons are known but are not as common as the two reales size. This might bring more money in a sale if there was conclusive proof it had been used as a button.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1350 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2018  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
http://goccf.com/t/36861


Quote:
That is a typical late Republic forgery. They were Mexican in origin and used the emerging technique of Impact Transfer to make dies. They were struck in copper, bronze and sometimes white metal. They were covered with different plates - silver, tin etc as well as paint. The forgers got quite adept at forging dies with impact technique so that most of the forgeries from the period have essentially correct appearances. They were also smart enough to use a simple edge mill to duplicate the correct edge. A few have plain edges.

I have three double row boxes full of this type of counterfeit (about 600). They were made in all silver denominations including the 1/4R. The 2Rs are the most common followed by the 8R (not included in my count) then the 1R, 4R and 1/2R. The 1/4Rs are by far the scarcest. An interesting study is a compliation of various fantasy assayer initials from this period. They seemed to get the mint mark correct most of the time but assayer initials vary wildly.

Most of these copies were for the local Mexican market and most surviving copies can be traced directly to Mexico. There was a large hoard (thousands) recovered in Northern Mexico a few years back. Most copies available today seem to trace to that horad. I do not suspect that many of these were made in the US. There are some which use a very formal looking square font that were apparently of european origin (possibly France) and date to the same period that produced the "military style" buttons featuring coin designs.

Earlier (pre-1857) copies of minor Mexican coins are in fact quite scarce. There are a few Sheffield plate copies and even fewer German Silver forgeries of minor denominations.

------

There are several versions of the story regarding the discovery of the hoard. But the best I can piece together is that a group of pot hunters using metal detectors in a "National Park area" in Mexico discovered them buried at a mine/refining facility ruin. They were in the dump area and the number uncovered was in the thouands. They have been on the market longer than 10 years and the hoard has been broken up a few times. That is about all I know with reasonable certainty. As far as value, I have seen that vary widely. Personally for the example you posted - I would guess about $10. It is a common date and in average shape for this group
Pillar of the Community
United States
1622 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2018  01:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the the info and those links realeswatcher. I'm sorry you missed the end of that listing, I actually do enjoy the competitive bidding :)

In my research I have found numerous 1860's coins that were bare copper or brass and of various mintmarks, as you said, so I didn't consider this one particularly rare. But, I bid because it looks more well made and in better shape than the majority of examples I have seen. I also appreciate the added effort of adding an edge design.

I agree with you on the scarcity of the denominations. In my experience so far I'd say the rarity from more common to more rare is 8R, 2R, 1R, 1/2R, 4R.

I now have 5 CC 1 reales and a sixth on the way, as well as several 2R and 8R pieces. I've seen maybe two CC 1/2 real which colonialjohn had put up on eBay, but have yet to see a CC 4R.
Edited by Numismat
05/18/2018 01:52 am
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