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Rare 1916 Standing Liberty Quarter Pattern Discovered, Heading for Auction

 
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14337 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  1:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Bidders will do extra due dilligence with it and those that think NGC got it wrong will stay away and those that think they got it right will go hard if they want it.

Serious bidders won't care about whether it is a proof or not. The coin is what it is and it will probably be their only chance to ever acquire the coin. If you had a once in a lifetime chance to get a coin you wanted would you pass on it because a TPG may have mislabeled it?


Quote:
I can see near future there would be a article on how PCGS missed in attributing a pattern piece, and more collectors will be submitting their coins to NGC for grading. This is a major hiccup for PCGS not spotting it.

If so then PCGS can shoot back asking how NGC missed the Dupont 1866 No Motto quarter and slabbed it as a regular 1866 proof quarter.
Gary Schmidt
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10901 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  3:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If you had a once in a lifetime chance to get a coin you wanted would you pass on it because a TPG may have mislabeled it?


All that would matter to me in this case is whether or not I thought it was the pattern. Proof vs not a proof is rather irrelevant to a buyer in this instance. A consensus on that would be nice from a knowledge perspective, but I don't think it would make a difference price wise
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60341 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  5:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Serious bidders won't care about whether it is a proof or not. The coin is what it is and it will probably be their only chance to ever acquire the coin. If you had a once in a lifetime chance to get a coin you wanted would you pass on it because a TPG may have mislabeled it?
This.
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3780 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add macmercury to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If so then PCGS can shoot back asking how NGC missed the Dupont 1866 No Motto quarter and slabbed it as a regular 1866 proof quarter.


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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
14465 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have learned something new about 1916 SLQ's :

Liberty's right breast is actually covered.
You can see evidence of the edge of light drapery that covers Her right breast, around Her neck and on Her right upper arm.


Sorry to disappoint those blokes that like that sort of thing !
Edited by sel_69l
07/10/2018 6:48 pm
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10901 Posts
 Posted 07/10/2018  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have learned something new about 1916 SLQ's :

Liberty's right breast is actually covered.
You can see evidence of the edge of light drapery that covers Her right breast, around Her neck and on Her right upper arm.


Sorry to disappoint those blokes that like that sort of thing !


It's not covered on 1916 SLQs

http://www.PCGScoinfacts.com/CoinIm....aspx?s=5704
Bedrock of the Community
United States
14337 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  11:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Liberty's right breast is actually covered.
You can see evidence of the edge of light drapery that covers Her right breast, around Her neck and on Her right upper arm.

They caught her between putting on her bodice and putting on the chain mail. (Could you imagine wearing chain mail with nothing under it? That could HURT!)
Gary Schmidt
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1985 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  1:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is a good article. Although it answers many questions, it also brings new questions:
1) What did PCGS consider "repairs" causing this to be a details grade?
2) It may not matter, but how (if at all) will the controversy of proof vis--vis non-proof be resolved. Reminds me of the 1856 FE cent. Perhaps a "specimen" would be most appropriate.
3) It's great that HA caught the fact that this is a pattern, but if I am reading the article correctly HA submitted the coin originally to PCGS -- did they not realize it was a pattern upon first submission?

Bedrock of the Community
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10901 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
3) It's great that HA caught the fact that this is a pattern, but if I am reading the article correctly HA submitted the coin originally to PCGS -- did they not realize it was a pattern upon first submission?


They missed it too. It wasn't until it happened to get in front of the one guy that it was noticed. No way to know if NGC would have spotted it without it being pointed out to them by him first
Edited by basebal21
07/11/2018 2:26 pm
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1985 Posts
 Posted 07/11/2018  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With so many "experts" missing what is somewhat obvious, this image comes to mind.



Now, if the mistake went unnoticed and the coin sold as a damaged "regular" 1916 and was later discovered, wouldn't the seller be able to go after HA or PCGS?

Edited by jimbucks
07/11/2018 3:17 pm
Bedrock of the Community
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 Posted 07/11/2018  3:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Now, if the mistake went unnoticed and the coin sold as a damaged "regular" 1916 and was later discovered, wouldn't the seller be able to go after HA or PCGS?


PCGS no, HA you could make a case but with all their lawyers I'd bet their fine print would absolve them
Bedrock of the Community
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 Posted 07/12/2018  11:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Probably not because they typically just state what is on the slab label, and if you have problems with what is actually in the slab they tell you to take it up with the TPG. The only thing they guarantee in the case of slabbed coins is authenticity. Mis-described is not grounds for an authenticity claim.
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 07/12/2018  1:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@oih82w8 - thanks for the link - sheds more light on the situation.


Quote:

Quote:

But I don't understand why anyone would want a coin already labeled by NGC graders as a proof to send it to the company whose three graders evaluating this coin totally missed seeing what they were looking at - a rare pattern coin - in the first place.


It was missed by everyone for a 100 years. It wasn't just PCGS nor was that the first time it was sold or sold at auction. When you look through it Heritage missed it the first time too, it just happened to get in front of the right person who noticed it.

The article linked to by oih82w8 shows the facts say otherwise. This coin was in one collection. The owner passed away. The family sent the coin to be graded. None of the above are said to be professional graders, so I can see why they missed it.

I can see collectors "missing it" after it had been slabbed or the saying, "Buy the coin and not the slab," would not be so often said.

However, this coin seems to indicate the (PR) videos showing the actual grading process are not necessarily as real as they want us to believe. The level of scrutiny allegedly given to each cpin, by three different graders, crtainly not allow the missing of something this obvious.

State this another way. How in the world would three trained and expert graders who are intently studying (specifically) the coin to note the condition of its fine details NOT be able to see such an obvious difference like the extra branch?!

So just what does this say about if they were confronted with a good fake coin?

How many good fakes are slabbed and yet go unnoticed by the general coin collecting public who need to learn to buy the coin and not the slab? This is hypothetical at best, but missing an entire extra branch speaks volumes. If the pattern had only been missing the letter M, then that would be something else to consider...or would it? Three trained experts deliberately examining a coins details not seeing an obvious missing initial on the front?

Something about the videos showing the high level of scrutiny for each coin is certainly not what has happened. Again the tangible facts seems to corroborate exactly what has been posted before about the grading process being rushed.


Quote:
As for why, a lot of the big time coins NGC brags about end up getting crossed when they are won.

I did not see anything that indicated NGC was bragging - NGC did not write the article linked to. Could you point me to the bragging article you read?


Quote:
There's two potential buyers I can think of that if they want it they will win it and both would almost certainly try and cross it if they win.

Personal preference makes a lot of sense as to why someone would cross it. Its a hobby after all.

And, like you said, PCGS would likely label it correctly this time. There has been a lot of publicity and I can see where it would be best, reputation wise, to do so.

I just was not sure why you said there was a "strong chance" it would be crossed over. Come to think of it, have there many other documented slabs crossed the opposite direction to another company? Is there anywhere that actually records such things? I would think it advantageous to whichever company gets the most submissions to be crossed over to publish something like that.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
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398 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2018  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carwash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

If I was one of the graders that missed both of the differences I would be fearful for my job.
I'm not qualified to see the differences but I'm not trained for this either.
Wow what a find.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
10901 Posts
 Posted 07/12/2018  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The article linked to by oih82w8 shows the facts say otherwise. This coin was in one collection.


The article says hertiage submitted it both times which would mean they also missed it the first time. It was when the one guy saw it he saw what had been missed for so long.

It may or may not have been in a collection for a long time. I take that part with a grain of salt simply because that is what many submitters would say finding out that they are about to get a huge windfall off it instead of saying I just bought it from xyz and create potential problems for themselves.


Quote:
The level of scrutiny allegedly given to each cpin, by three different graders, crtainly not allow the missing of something this obvious.


That's probably why they called it repaired. No one defaults to thinking its the second known pattern worth 6 or 7 figures and things such as that are almost always submitted with documentation in a special manner like the glass cents were and like this coin was the second time to NGC.


Quote:
I did not see anything that indicated NGC was bragging - NGC did not write the article linked to. Could you point me to the bragging article you read?


They both regularly put press releases on their websites when something such as this is graded like PCGS did with the shipwrecked gold and NGC does with these types. There was an article on their site that they had graded it.


Quote:
I just was not sure why you said there was a "strong chance" it would be crossed over. Come to think of it, have there many other documented slabs crossed the opposite direction to another company?


I say strong chance because many of the coins like this do get crossed to PCGS after purchases. It has happened many times before with the ultrararities, the 1804 dollar that sold earlier this year used to be in an NGC slab too if it's the one I'm thinking of.

Yes some PCGS coins do get crossed to NGC but they're mostly lower valued ones. The high value and ultra rarity get crossed much more to PCGS than the other way around. The Newman coins were auction in NGC slabs but quite a few of those are now in PCGS ones as another example.


Quote:
Is there anywhere that actually records such things?


The real expensive ones are easy to track as are the ultra rarities. In terms of all coins PCGS does publish statistics but they also do cross overs with coins from any company so it includes the others as well. NGC doesn't share the info.

https://www.PCGS.com/statistics/
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