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eBay: Counterfeit conspiracy.

 
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Valued Member
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 Posted 12/03/2018  9:27 pm Show Profile   Check mamastinky's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add mamastinky to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
We look.
We report.
EBay only cares about profits.
We only care about the law, but MORE SPECIFICALLY: COLLECTING.

The law is all we have to work with, all we have to back us up.

What I am particularly concerned about at the very moment: eBay's selectivity relating to the handling of counterfeits, but specifically: COPIES.

COPIES.

Hobby Protection Act:
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...3.28&idno=16

I have a bone to pick with eBay, because I feel very strongly that EBAY ONLY ACTS IN FAVOR OF THOSE WHO MAKE THEM MONEY.

I think we can change this thing, but only as a team.

Please, who is with me?

If you search eBay using the "advanced search" tool, you can search item descriptions (in addition to the titles).

eBay's algorithms APPARENTLY do not include item DESCRIPTION, I learned today while on the phone with an ebay representative.

Did you guys know this?

THIS IS A DIRECT VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW. Is this a problem for anybody yet? They aren't even penalizing anybody. Why aren't we doing more? How can any of us DO MORE?

Please?
Valued Member
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 Posted 12/03/2018  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edthelorax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am usually just a lurker here. I LOVE numismatics. This is an issue that I believe needs to be addressed. Ebay and Amazon take in millions from us, They show absolutely no respect for our hobby and the laws that were made to protect us. The penalty to the seller for a felony violation of US law? The listing gets removed, if we are lucky. The penalty for ebay? LOL even though I do not find this funny at all. How many of these copies get relisted as genuine and end up in the hands of some unfortunate buyer? Sure, we should know what we are buying. Yes, buying from reputable dealers is the wise thing to do. Of course buying on ebay has risks. Does that mean we all should stand by watching as children learn to look before crossing the street by getting hit, or should we establish real penalties for not stopping for a pedestrian in a crosswalk? I do not believe that letting ebay make new collectors learn the hard way is in any way good for our hobby.
They use the excuse that they have many reports to review. Maybe if they didn't let so many fraudulent listings go, they wouldn't have so many reports to review. They could hire a team just off of what they made from those belonging to just this wonderful forum.
Ed
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 Posted 12/03/2018  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have a bone to pick with eBay, because I feel very strongly that EBAY ONLY ACTS IN FAVOR OF THOSE WHO MAKE THEM MONEY.


We get listings removed every day, doesn't matter who's selling it. You obviously have no idea what we do here. I can include you in the reporting forums if you like.
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 Posted 12/03/2018  11:45 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it weren't for the hard work that Bobby and many others do in reporting and helping get rid of bad listings, the problem would be 50 times worse than it is.

Can you prove that the seller knows he/she is selling a counterfeit? I have seen some high quality fakes, especially US classic gold issues, that would fool 95% of collectors 100% of the time. Furthermore, eBay's not a law enforcement agency -- beyond cancelling listings and kicking users off the site, all they could do would be to report the users who sold fakes to the appropriate government agencies. Said agencies will not devote many, if any, resources to prosecuting a single seller of a handful of illegal items, and do not have the budget or manpower to do so anyway, and to be honest, Chinese counterfeits of US coins are not currently high on their priority list when dealing with superbills and government-backed professional counterfeiting and forgery operations.

There is no "magic bullet" -- you could spend a million bucks a year on hiring and training a team of people with some numismatic experience to literally do nothing but look through listings all day and target fakes for removal, and you wouldn't make much of a noticeable difference.

It would be nice to develop AI systems to detect suspicious patterns, behaviors, listing techniques, etc. but that technology is both expensive and very much in its infancy still...basically, you'd need the AI to "learn" by analyzing every item that got reported and confirmed, looking for commonalities, shared data points, etc. This is the way things will probably work at some point in the distant future but I likely won't live long enough to see it become a reality.

The current focus should be on encouraging reporting of suspicious listings and educating buyers and collectors on what to look for and when to be concerned.

And remember that it is not in eBay's best interest to allow a flood of fakes to dominate the listings -- it would scare off and drive out the vast majority of collectors, and the number of buyers and sellers lost from such a situation would be far more financially damaging than the potential gain from turning a blind eye to scammers, especially since most of the "bad apples" aren't generating much revenue for eBay in the way of listing fees and FVF's anyway.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Valued Member
United States
392 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2018  12:49 am  Show Profile   Check mamastinky's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add mamastinky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
We get listings removed every day, doesn't matter who's selling it. You obviously have no idea what we do here. I can include you in the reporting forums if you like.


Thank you, Bobby; sure thing, I'd like that.


Quote:
If it weren't for the hard work that Bobby and many others do in reporting and helping get rid of bad listings, the problem would be 50 times worse than it is.


I'm sure I agree, @paralyse.

My main point, the reason for starting this thread: I believe we can do MORE. I believe that with a megaphone and a LOT of angry numismatists, we can upgrade ebay's policy.

Here is why what triggered me: I spend enough time talking to eBay about these things; sometimes I post here, I have a few other places I report through, methods, who cares.. I spend ENOUGH time. Bobby understands, I can only imagine...

..but then when eBay reps cannot comprehend why you are even reporting something in SPITE of the fact that the item description actually includes that the coin IS IN FACT A COPY (except the seller is strictly taking advantage of the fact that the majority of buyers simply do not read the description), then I call BS. Their algorithms would have caught these.. I have so many links, SOOOO SO SO SO many links that take advantage of this loophole.. eBay isn't in the business of looking out for collectors.

ebay only cares about their revenue. I want eBay to work for me, for you, for everyone; I want it to be GOOD.

I am trying to say, if you used the ADVANCED search, you cannot find copies fast enough to report them in time to get rid of all of them, let alone HALF.

I am saying: why are we letting ebay get away with this?
Edited by mamastinky
12/04/2018 12:50 am
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 Posted 12/04/2018  03:04 am  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
edthelorax, there is a special subforum here for reporting bad listings, this is not the place or the thread.

In addition, there is no policy against selling copies/replicas as long as they are clearly marked and identified as such by the seller; "fantasy" issues that are not copies of real coins are exempt entirely, as are contemporary/historical counterfeits of numismatic value.

If you want to report those listings, do it through eBay first, and then learn how to access the reporting subforum here and learn the rules for posting there.

Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 12/04/2018  03:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratman4762 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In addition, there is no policy against selling copies/replicas as long as they are clearly marked and identified as such by the seller;

I have to disagree with this. I remember when Ebay started banning copy coins.
Just copied this from Ebay policy in the prohibited & restricted section. I remember when it used to say "even if marked as a copy"


Quote:

Not allowed

Replica coins
Replica, plated or clad bullion
Counterfeit coins
Counterfeit bank notes
Counterfeit bonds
Counterfeit money orders
Counterfeit securities
Equipment used to make counterfeit items
Reproduction or replica versions of any Canadian currency
Altered paper currency intended to deceive a collector


& again here:

Quote:
Can I sell replica coins?

No. Replica coins and replica, plated or clad bullion are not permitted
.

The problem with Ebay is they want to keep everything vague so they have an "out". It's TOO much work keeping all the copies off the site!
Edited by ratman4762
12/04/2018 04:18 am
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 Posted 12/04/2018  05:48 am  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If you want to report those listings, do it through eBay first, and then learn how to access the reporting subforum here and learn the rules for posting there.
Reporting counterfeit coins through the eBay reporting system is ineffective 99% of the time.

The CCF counterfeit subforums are ONLY for those CCF members that will actively and accurately make posts about eBay listings for counterfeit coins. The CCF counterfeit subforums are no longer for those that just want to lurk, observe, or "learn more" about counterfeits.

If you are confident that you can spot counterfeits on eBay, can effectively convey in writing and illustrations why they are fake, and are willing to commit some time to the effort, then send me a private message.

nss-52
counterfeit forums moderator
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 Posted 12/04/2018  06:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edthelorax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
edthelorax, there is a special subforum here for reporting bad listings, this is not the place or the thread.

I truly apologize for listing these here. I am sorry that I have not been able to find the correct subforum. I honestly have looked, but have yet to find it. If someone would kindly direct me to it, I would be most appreciative.

Quote:
The problem with Ebay is they want to keep everything vague so they have an "out".

As the original poster stated, no matter what ebay's policy is this is what the Hobby Protection Act (Federal Law) states.

Quote:
304.3 Applicability.
Any person engaged in the manufacturing, or importation into the United States for introduction into or distribution in commerce, of imitation political or imitation numismatic items shall be subject to the requirements of the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder. Any person engaged in the sale in commerce of imitation numismatic items shall be subject to the requirements of the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder. It shall be a violation of the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder for a person to provide substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller of imitation numismatic items, or to any manufacturer or importer of imitation political items, if that person knows or should have known that the manufacturer, importer, or seller is engaged in any practice that violates the Act and the regulations promulgated thereunder.

[81 FR 70938, Oct. 14, 2016]



Quote:
It's TOO much work keeping all the copies off the site!

Too much work is not an acceptable excuse for not conforming to laws. Not in any way shape or form would that stand up in any court. Honestly, it doesn't even make sense. Part of the reason I posted those links here like I did was to show just how easy it is. I found about 20 in about a half of an hour.

Quote:
If you want to report those listings, do it through eBay first, and then learn how to access the reporting subforum here and learn the rules for posting there.

Please believe me when I say I have made 100's or reports via ebay's "report item" link. At some point I quit due to ebay's non-existent action. I then tried talking live with ebay's concierge reps. When they asked "why do you feel this is a copy?" and I had to answer "Because it says it is in the description" I felt like I was wasting not only my time, but someone else's that should be helping a buyer. When that listing was not removed, I knew my feeling was justified.

Quote:
learn how to access the reporting subforum here and learn the rules for posting there.

Please excuse my ignorance for not being able to learn this on my own. Please teach me. I am sure I am not the only one reading this thread that would benefit from that information.
The complacency in addressing this issue is slowly eroding our ability to retain new numismatists. If allowed to continue, it Will destroy coin collecting in my honest opinion.
Thank You all for participating in this discussion.
Ed
Valued Member
United States
69 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2018  06:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edthelorax to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

The CCF counterfeit subforums are ONLY for those CCF members that will actively and accurately make posts about eBay listings for counterfeit coins. The CCF counterfeit subforums are no longer for those that just want to lurk, observe, or "learn more" about counterfeits.

If you are confident that you can spot counterfeits on eBay, can effectively convey in writing and illustrations why they are fake, and are willing to commit some time to the effort

I am definitely willing to commit my time but do not feel qualified to determine counterfeits besides those that are blatantly obvious. Those should be taken care of by ebay, not us. I believe that with the proper pressure, ebay will change their management of this problem. I sure would love to learn more about it though. Is there a place here for me and others that need the guidance of those who do have the experience?
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 Posted 12/04/2018  07:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scopru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ed contact NSS if you have questions about the counterfeit subforum as he said above. However, as was also said that is not the subforum for a lurker or a learner.


Quote:
Is there a place here for me and others that need the guidance of those who do have the experience?


This whole forum is geared toward people learning. You simply have to search. There are fakes, copies and counterfeits discussed in numerous of the forums.

Also, please try to combine your messages into 1 post vs multiple in a row.
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 Posted 12/04/2018  09:50 am  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I should have clarified that by "policy" I meant US law, not eBay policy. My apologies.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 12/04/2018  10:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I reported all the ones you posted in this topic, but please don't post any more here...


And all gone in 42 minutes.
Valued Member
United States
392 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2018  12:41 pm  Show Profile   Check mamastinky's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add mamastinky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And all gone in 42 minutes.

Thanks, Bobby.

Everybody is missing the point of my post.

From the point of view of the 'tech savvy,' eBay should not be allowing any *ANY* fakes that are described as fake in the item DESCRIPTION (while avoiding making any mention at all in the item TITLE).

eBay uses already complex algos. The simple fact that they have "neglected" to home in on obvious fakes says it all. That is what I am saying. There is no reason at all this should be overlooked.


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 Posted 12/04/2018  12:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No algo in the World is going to pick up all the fakes.

Plus if they use an algo to stop every listing with fake or copy in the description it will just make everything a thousand times worse. In fact, I'd be mad if they did it. It would make what we do harder.

The way it is now at least you can get a seller on your radar before they start outright lying.
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