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PCGS Mis-attribution Of An 1859 Variety

 
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1388 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  10:55 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I found this 1859 on e-bay that is titled wrong as a 1859 DP9 #4.

Its a very nice 1859 variation but not a #4 so buyer beware, I contacted the seller with a friendly approach explaining to him that it was not a DP9 #4. I mentioned to him that the 5 was the wrong 5 and that the die crack at leaf 7 was in the wrong place as well for a #4.

His return answer to me was that varieties are not his area of collecting and that he goes by the grading company, but said he would look into it a little bit. Also said he had expert friends that are variety specialist and he will show them.

This was 3-4 days ago and the coin is still up either he never showed his specialty friends or they don't know there crap this is not a #4 e-bay 401733028348

PS: The only reason I bring this up is that it has a price tag of $2,000.00 hate to see someone get ripped

*** Edited by Staff - Fixed Item Number ***


Edited by papeldog
03/25/2019 8:03 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
664 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  11:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I looked up that one papeldog and I believe it is a PC59-101 (10+E12) which does have a nice repunched 9 but is not nearly as hard to find as a DP9 #4.

Very good to point that out so someone won't be disappointed.
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Canada
8493 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  11:37 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do you mean eBay ID: 401733028348 ?

That one is in a PCGS Gold Shield holder, so there is a possible recourse for any buyer.
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1262 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Has anyone ever tried to take these companies up on their guarantees?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2431 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  12:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That Ebay coin is not even close to a #4. That one is the one on p 284 of the 2011 Charlton and not hard to find at all. I think that I have 6-7 of them
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1388 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree Phil310 with your identification on this 1859

Here's the same coin same grading company but mine is graded as a 1859 DP9 #1 but I correctly labeled it a PD59-101 10 + E12 by James Haxby's site the bible for 1859's.










I think PCGS should use the literature and web site's provided for there research and for 1859's the Haxby site, I'm a little disappointed in PCGS as we pay big money to have coins put in the hard slabs.
Edited by papeldog
03/25/2019 12:47 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
664 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  1:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This one page in the Haxby catalog shows 37 different reverse dies with re-punched 9's, and with links to the pages that give all of the markers for the dies. If the grading companies would use these resources when attributing 1859's it would help them a lot. It's easy to compare with all of them shown on the same page.

E25a is the die which actually is the DP9 #4.

E12 is the die for the other two incorrectly listed by PCGS as DP9 #4 (the ebay listed coin)and DP9 #1 (papledog's coin). As Bill pointed out, it is also listed in the back of the 2011 Charlton, but I think it is page 283 instead of 284.

http://www.vickycents.com/rm-9.html
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Canada
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 Posted 03/25/2019  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Has anyone ever tried to take these companies up on their guarantees?


Yes, both PCGS and NGC. And, unlike Canadian third party graders, they put their money where their mouth is...
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Pillar of the Community
United States
2431 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  2:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You may be right, Phil, about p283 vice 284, but I didn't see the underpunch on the upper loop lower left ... I didn't think it was on the Ebay coin, but it's hard to tell. It definitely has the under punches below the tail, left and right.
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United States
796 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  2:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Last time they screwed one of mine up, I called them. They sent a Fedex shipping label to me, took the coin back, re-holdered it correctly, and mailed it back. No charge.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1388 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  3:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's great news Rob and Roger that they correct the mistakes and I will check into it and see what they will do for me being in Canada Customs and all the bull to ship coins across the boarder and back again.

The coin that I posted in the post that is graded #1 is not the only one I have I sent another DP9 a while back that never even got a DP9 indication at all its the Haxby PC59 -65a4 65a + P4a it come back as a normal narrow 9 its clearly not hard to see the DP9 especially in the higher grades.

I really think they should be using the reference available I do realise that they will correct them but its still a pain in the you know what
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United States
796 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They will generally only label varieties for which they have established a coin number (see their population report). If they haven't done so for a particular re-punched 9, it will normally come back as a plain narrow 9. I was speaking of when they mix up two varieties they do recognize. Your DP#1 will likely get corrected into a narrow 9 holder.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1388 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, the Canadian 1859 large cents and varieties are many, but the information is readily available to them on line with the 1859 Haxby site to see all the different DP9's and the markers for them.

As well as some other issues on Obverse varieties they don't bother to identify them either and Rob you have provided them literature and great pictures in your books and writings.

Charlton Coin Books show all Obverse varieties and the years they had more than 1 obverse as well as some other varieties they could start using if they don't already.

This is what I have a hard time with they have the info readily available to get things correct on the slabs.

I do also realise we as Canadians are a small market to them and maybe a bother to them but to keep going the way they are headed isn't going to gain any good reputation for the Company or as a go to grading Company.
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United States
2431 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent the seller an email, telling him what it was and that PCGS should recert it.
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United States
1726 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Check jdmern's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jdmern to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Let's set the facts straight here.

Piece listed was mine.

I received this exact message from the OP on SATURDAY (NOT '3 or 4 days ago'.)


Quote:

New message from: papeldog (1,218Red Star)
Good morning, This is a very nice coin you are selling but it is not a DP9 #4 the DP #4 has an extra DP5 on the front top of the 5 this coin is missing that 5 as well as the die crack at leaf 7 is in the wrong place. But still a very nice coin.


I responded within an hour the following:


Quote:
New message to: papeldog
Hi Jim,

Varieties are not my area of specialty, so I generally defer to the grading companies on these. I'll look into it a bit, and I'll show it to a couple of people I know who are variety specialists.

Thanks,
J.D. Meunier


Our office is closed Saturday and Sunday. Monday we're doing our shipping, and apparently, the OP felt the need to start this thread, falsely claiming I was contacted 3 or 4 days ago. For a bit of added information, our reference library is at our office, so there was no way I could even begin to research it until today.

Then, at around 2 pm, we start getting calls to our office from a Canadian phone number, with some lunatic calling me every name in the book and telling me I sell fake varieties and I was trying to scam his friend on a $2000 coin. This continued to the point we had to unplug the phone this afternoon.

Later today, we got another eBay message where the member sent a clear explanation of grading mistake, with a specific reference to his credentials and a referral to the 2011 Charlton, which we have in our library, which gave us the information we needed to pull the coin. He also mentioned that this was being discussed on coin sites, which is where I put the 2 and 2 together of the lunatic calling up the office all afternoon and costing us several hours of time.

I certainly do not appreciate this 'vigilante' mob mentality on a piece that appears to have been misidentified by PCGS. I deal in world coins full time for a living, and I take the reputation of my business and myself very seriously. I freely admit I am not a variety expert, but in general, I take the judgement of a company like PCGS over some random person over the internet who decides to send a message and tell me to examine the die cracks. We do quite a high volume of eBay sales, and I can not tell you how many messages we receive from people who are flat out wrong on basic numismatic facts.

But certainly, papeldog, wouldn't want to let the facts get in the way of good story, right?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1626 Posts
 Posted 03/25/2019  8:29 pm  Show Profile   Check gidjit's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add gidjit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
good to see you are taking care of this issue by pulling this coin, myself I would also investigate this matter (if I wasnt familiar with varieties) before pullng the coin. in the end you did the right thing
please check out my collection of large cents from 1858 - 1920 (under construction)
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