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1916 Lincoln Wheat Cent - Prooflike Toned Coin

 
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 Posted 04/12/2019  5:16 pm Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I wouldn't be able to verify a 1916 matte proof, as I've never seen one, but when I got this thing it covered a couple of the obvious bases. It's 1916, it's got really sharp detail, the fields are matte-like finish, it's toned like many early proofs, and the rim is so flat you can just stand the coin up on a sheet of paper.

So I'm calling it a neat little toned 1916 unless someone who knows more than I about this year can weigh in one way or the other as to whether it may be a proof or not.

1916 Lincoln Wheat cent toned




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 Posted 04/12/2019  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow , real nice 1916 cent . I also don't know about Matte Proof Lincolns . The only thing I'm noticing is the rims are not really squared off thinking this is a gem business strike .
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 Posted 04/12/2019  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Fantastic coin! Leaning toward regular issue, MS-66RB.
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 Posted 04/12/2019  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is most likely a proof. Note the razor rims of the obverse, if you could get us a closeup of this area (below) it would help. There are also die markers to look for.


My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: http://goccf.com/t/359443&whichpage=1
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 04/12/2019  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nicely toned Lincoln Wheat cent tropicalbats!
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
Machine Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
Split Plate Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/357614
2000 P LMC With Retained Struck Through error. http://goccf.com/t/357080
Edited by Errers and Varietys
04/12/2019 6:06 pm
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 Posted 04/12/2019  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Borrowed from the author of Lincoln cent matte proofs,


Quote:
Analysis of the 430 coin (430th confirmed matte proof), comparing against the 749 coin (confirmed obverse #1/reverse #1)
There is a die scratch on both which goes from the middle of the U, through the S, to the upper left of the T of TRUST.
Broken top right side of O of GOD seen on both
Not sure about die scratches in top left of W, might be obscured with toning
Date is difficult on both to see, but on the 430 coin, I see a small 60 degree angle scratch on the top inside right of the 9.
I also saw other matching die diagnostics on the obverse between the two coins.

Obverse and reverse on the 430 has Strike Doubling not see on die pair #1, especially on reverse. The die
could have become loose near the end of its usage though.

The obverse on 430 matches obverse #1, but what I do not like about this coin is that it does not appear to have been struck as a proof IMO, the edge appears to thin, and the inside edge appears tilted and not squared. Some of the outside lettering, IGWT, EPU do not appear to as fully struck as a proof.

The surface on the 430 is definitely granular.

This is the same obverse as 1916 Lincoln cent matte proof obverse #1, but it is not a proof as it was not struck as a proof.

Brian Wagner (copied herein) independently came to the same conclusion as did others who first uncovered this.

IMO, what probably happened is that two pair of dies were allocated for Lincoln cent matte proofs in 1916.
When the Director stated in October 1916 that no more proofs would be struck, then one of the dies was taken from the medal room (where proofs were normally struck during this period), to be used in production for coins struck for circulation. This is the first time that I have seen one of the Lincoln cent matte proof dies used for coins struck for circulation. A confirming specimen would be helpful to verify that this was not just a poorly struck proof.
Matte proofs were struck once, slower at higher pressure. Going slower gave more time for the metal to flow into the deepest recesses of the working dies.

On the 16s, there were 3 deliveries, 200 each.

No, they would not have modified the rims for circulation, is just if full production mode, less time and pressure used
which will not fully fill the rims.

In my study of the mattes, I have seen circulation strikes that had stronger rims that the proofs, especially on the
1911, small coin, less pressure required.
Coin #430
http://images.PCGS.com/CoinFacts/30414430_max.jpg
Obverse + Reverse 1 Die Pair
http://images.PCGS.com/CoinFacts/81...8749_max.jpg


For those further interested, here is a resource on matte proofs writen by a very knowledgable man on the matter

https://www.amazon.com/Lincoln-Matt...8-1-fkmrnull
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: http://goccf.com/t/359443&whichpage=1
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 04/12/2019  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unsure of why you are not asking for close-ups of the other die markers if you believe this is a proof.
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 Posted 04/12/2019  8:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would think that there is enough potential upside that the OP would submit it to a TPG. Even if not a proof, it should grade fairly high assuming no issues with it.
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 Posted 04/12/2019  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Can't argue with that.
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 Posted 04/12/2019  8:25 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess I forgot to ask, @TB can you get some pics of those markers I mentioned?
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: http://goccf.com/t/359443&whichpage=1
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 04/12/2019  8:35 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just getting back to reading the replies. I do the cooking around here and people were hungry!

First, thanks for the kind words and great comments. Honestly I just picked this up on ebay last Saturday for $17 including shipping. I liked it for the price and a friend of mine collects toned wheats so figured that at worst he'd give me that much for it and all would be good. But it had just enough characteristics of a proof that I thought, well, it's almost impossible but maybe. And after getting it in hand it is in much higher grade than I expected.

So, guessing I should send it in to PCGS and let them grade it for whatever they determine it to be. Can't really lose as it'll be a high grade toner at the very least.

But while I see a few minor die markers listed in the copied text above, is there a page dedicated to the die markers for this year? If there were only two die pairs I would expect this to be out there somewhere an in great detail.

I can see about taking more detailed images, but would really like to have some die markers to go after if I'm going to do that rather than just random close ups of things.

Again, thanks everyone, it is appreciated.
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 Posted 04/12/2019  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A couple more images, but not sure what I'm looking for. The coin does not have the marker listed as going from the U to the last T of TRUST. I don't see a broken die in the upper right of the O of GOD. But also putting in an image of LIBERTY to show how crisp the lettering is overall.




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 Posted 04/12/2019  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good news TB, it was at least struck with proof dies. It was struck with proof pairing #1 or PRObv-001 and PRRev-001. There is an easy way to tell. The first coin #430 is the second die pair used and is the first trueview link. Pay attention to the obverse die alignment. Now check the second trueview link, that misalignment look familier? As far as I can find no BS coins were made with pair #1. I can confirm this easily if you would humor me. Can I get a closeup of 1916, specifically the '9', as well as the word TRUST and the letters US of trust? I'm chechking the die scratches. The first scratch in trust isn't strong on later die state examples. But the marker in the 9 is. Also, 1916 matte proofs were known for less sharp rims, reference the second trueview link.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: http://goccf.com/t/359443&whichpage=1
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 04/12/2019  11:58 pm  Show Profile   Check tropicalbats's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add tropicalbats to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Getting more interesting. I'd even love for a proof die BS, but we shall see what you come up with. The MAD does seem to match.

Pics as requested. Sorry about all those bits of dusty stuff on there but I'm not brushing anything off the coin just dealing with it as it is.

Two lighting angles on the date.





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 Posted 04/13/2019  12:39 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well all die markers match, I have side by sides if you want them. It appears to be an unlisted stage, I'll call Stage C die markers are there, just very weak. Regardless it is made using proof dies, and a known die mating. Based on the strike itself being slightly of lower quality and lacking traditional square rims, I think this is a matte proof. Even if not, it deserves a slab, but I do think you have one.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: http://goccf.com/t/359443&whichpage=1
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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United States
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 Posted 04/13/2019  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now the question is, NGC or PCGS for getting it in the slab?

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