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Han Wuzhu And Tang Tong Bao Coins. Are These Authentic?

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 Posted 04/27/2019  07:09 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Yazul to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
What you guys think of these? Is patina natural? The Han coin seems very convincing but I know Chinese forgers can forge this type of patina.

AnYangMan, please chime in and let us know your opinion since you are one of the best experts I know of in this area

Bedrock of the Community
16466 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2019  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They look OK to me.
Easy to reproduce this sort of patina by thoroughly mixing very dilute sulfuric and hydrochloric acid in a rather large volume of soil, and burying the coins in it.
Just examine the coins very few days, until convincingly 'patinated'.

The problem with genuine Chinese cash coins is that they are cast, and therefore are fairly easy to fake, then 'patinate', as above.

Having indicated all as above, I do have a relatively large collection of Chinese cash coins, covering all Dynasties, most Emperors, and with Reign Titles represented to a lesser extent. All fully described and identified according to Schjoth numbers.

On one hand, I am reasonably convinced that most of my Chinese cash coins are genuine, but on the other hand I must admit: I am not 100 % sure about any of them.
To be brutally honest, that doesn't worry me much, because they were all purchased for not much money, many decades ago. I have yet to find any professional dealer who can tell me with 100% certainty, that any of them are fake.
So, nominally at least, I agree with the dealers. That makes me happy enough.
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 Posted 04/27/2019  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Yazul to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree sel_69 . I also can never be sure when it comes to cash Chinese coins and that is why I rely on experts here . What makes me a bit convinced that the Wu Zhu patina is natural, is the under patina corrosion happening in the 2-4 clock on obverse. You can see the metal is clearly corroded under patina again even this could have been done by expert forgers but need more time and effort. I am hoping AnYangMan checks this thread and provide his opinion as well.
Bedrock of the Community
16466 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2019  10:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with your thinking.
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 Posted 04/28/2019  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AnYangMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both are genuine indeed. I must add that I am not extremely well-versed in what I call 'later' cash (Anything after 221 BC), so I wouldn't really call myself an expert or anything. But you pick up a fair few things now and again ;).

Patina is just part of the authentication process. The style and calligraphy are equally difficult to fake convincingly, just as in 'western' ancients. The statement I have heard that 'they would be easier to fake than other ancients' is utter nonsense. Agreed, detecting these fakes can be slightly more difficult due to the lack of die-matches, since they were cast, but if one studies the issue or type in detail, a lot fakes will not show the correct style!

The Wuzhu indeed shows a multi-layered patina, a good sign for authenticity. Patina formation is not a linear process. Instead, what you will see is that a primary corrosion product will form first, virtually always cuprite (though not necessarily), on the original surface of the coin. Over time, this will continue deeper into the coin, while secondary corrosion products form on top of the original surface. What happened here is that a part of the crust somehow got chipped and exposed the deep cuprite penetration. Nice and genuine.

As said, the Kai-yuan is also genuine, but I would personally not pursue this coin. While it is a decent example, there are much better ones with far more pleasing patinas. One of the upsides to some of these types being so common is that you have plenty of choice and can be rather selective in the type & crustiness of the patina that you prefer. The few examples of Kai-yuans I have for example mostly come from a single hoard of them. Beautiful deep blue patina with orange highlights, what's not to love?
Edited by AnYangMan
04/28/2019 5:33 pm
Bedrock of the Community
16466 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2019  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The most convincing fakes of any coin (ancient or modern) is that the fakes are made in exactly the same way as the genuine coins were made.

That is why genuine Chinese cast cash coins are so easy to fake. Easy for a modern 'cottage' operation to make in exactly the same way. Faking the patination is a little more difficult, because it has to be greatly accelerated.

It has to be remembered that coins generally (including cast cash coins), can acquire very wide variety of different sorts of patinas, that are highly dependent on the environment(s) they happen to have been in, and the amount of time in that (those) environment(s).
Edited by sel_69l
04/28/2019 9:30 pm
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39 Posts
 Posted 04/28/2019  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Yazul to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks so much AnYangMan ad Sel_69 . I am now much more confident since both of you agree these coins are authentic. I was also thinking the Han coin most likely authentic as it has deep penetrating patina into metal.

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