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Question/Oddity/Error? 2019 S Na Coin Edge Lettering Weakness/Missing

 
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 Posted 05/01/2019  9:13 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi. I just received my 2019S silver proof set from the mint. I was inspecting the coins and the Native American dollar coin shows 3 lines around the edge, I assume the lettering die collar segments. The segmet with "e pluribus unum" is visible to me although it is weak the other 2 segments or collar parts I see maybe a star or 2 and what I think is possibly a 9 or an S otherwise I don't detect anything.

I've tried angling the case and twisting and turning it under magnification it get a better look with every magnifier I have. I also can't get a clear picture of it because of the plastic lens and the Angles required to see it all in focus. I'm not that skilled yet.

I've compared it to the one in my 2019 clad proof set and there is absolutely something wrong with the edge lettering. The one from the clad proof set is strong and all Stars are clear as well as the date and mint mark easy to see with no manification and even easier with magnification.

So. I wanted to report this finding and IF it is missing partial edge lettering would it be valuable enough to cracking out the set or is it just another of the $5-$10 iffy error coins not worth bothering with?

I really don't want to crack out the set, so I'm going to try any other way first to get a good handle on what's going on here first before doing that.

I will continue to try to figure it out how to get pictures in focus of the edge without removing it from the case, and I need a better magnifier apparently anyways lol.

Opinions and advice are welcome, just wish I had clear pictures to show.

Is there a specific order to the collar segments? Are there supposed to be a specific number of stars on the edge? I know nothing on these types of coins I stopped with them until this year since like 2006.

For sure there's a big observable difference between the edge lettering strength of the two examples I have.
The one in the clad set has the below clear to just my eye without magnification:

|* E PLURIBUS UNUM |* * * * * * * *| * * 2019 S * * |

The one from the silver proof set has:
|* E PLURIBUS UNUM |* * _ _ _ * * *| _ _ ____ S * * |
The underscores represent abrasion areas where stuff is missing.

Appears like there some heavy abrasion going on in the blank areas and all of the lettering is weak as well as the collar segment lines compared to the other example I have to compare it to.

I would appreciate any thoughts someone might have on the subject. I'll try to figure out how to get pictures without cracking out in the meantime.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
05/02/2019 07:40 am
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 Posted 05/01/2019  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting. I'll let the other pros chime in for this one.
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
Machine Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
Split Plate Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/357614
2000 P LMC With Retained Struck Through error. http://goccf.com/t/357080
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 Posted 05/01/2019  10:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


One of the best pictures I have at the moment. This is the date segment of the collar lettering. The "S" can be seen as well as the abrasion area where the date should be.
This is my first picture upload and it took me since my initial post to figure this far out. more pics to follow. Not sure how to put more than one at a time yet....
Edited by Big-Kingdom
05/01/2019 10:49 pm
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 Posted 05/01/2019  11:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply




Fist picture here is bad it's the date section with the S with a flash. Didn't work out to identify the section.

2ND picture is the "e pluribus unum section.

3rd pic is the stars collar section

Did the best I could do with what I got.. a Galaxy S5.lol
Edited by Big-Kingdom
05/01/2019 11:12 pm
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 Posted 05/02/2019  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The vertical line looks like a collar issue. But the edges also look like they have been tampered with on other areas.
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 Posted 05/02/2019  07:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Updated the post because I forgot the first star in "* E pluribus Unum". From what I can tell they should have a total of 13 stars around the rim as normal design elements.

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 Posted 12/28/2019  8:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Big Kingdom - I have the same exact "error' on my 2019-S Native American coin. And as I wanted to collect the three types of W pennies offered, I could compare the edge to the mint and clad proof sets as well as the 2018 Native American dollar's edge. And the "error" is the exact same and happened with the silver proof set I bought directly from the mint. Since I live in the NYC metro area I wonder if the abrasion and lack of a discernible date and mint mark were simply a temporary problem with the creation of the coin that simply was not caught. I mean 2019 was a busy year for the US Mint - launching the Innovation Dollar, the Reverse Proof American Eagle on top of the regular products they have been doing in the past decade or more (much more than when I was growing up in the 80's).

If anyone else finds such an error please post here.

My camera phone is a bit wonky so I didn't get any decent photos - as well as I didn't want to take the dollar out of its plastic holder.

Note, I received my silver proof set with the Native American dollar missing its date (or not discernible and the rim abrasion about mid November of this year.

Big-Kingdom, would you or anybody on the forum know where to find an expert to determine if the coin is a mint error or was (and I hope note) tampered by someone at the mint?

I also wonder, would such an error - date and mint mark missing make this Native American dollar collectible in the future?
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 Posted 01/18/2020  06:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
HI coinnewcomer1. I honestly don't know, which is why I posted here myself. Lol.
Doing research I know weak edge lettering or no edge lettering happen and exists on the dollar coins, no idea about the frequency it happens with proofs, and no idea on value of them.

I compared it to my clad proof set and the edge lettering is clear as day on the clad set coin and this one fron the silver proof set I struggle even with a 30x magnifier to even see some of it at all and I'm at the point of possible seeing things that might not be there because I am looking so hard for a sign of it.

I don't have any more info to add on it as I just don't know. If I come up with something I will post here though.


I don't believe it's tampering at the mint or during packaging. Grease filled lettering dies on the edge lettering strike is where I was at on it. Although on the coins, the edge lettering isn't raised, meaning the collar dies have raised letters.. not sure if this is right unless the entire collar had so much grease it, level with the stars and letters... and couldn't squeeze out on the strike? I dunno. Seems wrong to me. Maybe low pressure, maybe uneven pressure... weak strike seems to be the more correct diagnosis to me on how it happened than grease filled.

It's one of those coins I might send to anacs with my guess and gambLe on it and see what they say... just keeping it in OGP for now until I decide or see one somewhere else that has been figured out.

Good to know I'm not the only one though lol.
Edited by Big-Kingdom
01/18/2020 07:55 am
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 Posted 01/20/2020  5:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Big Kingdom thanks for the added info. As my handle implies I am new to this. So your comments on the edge showing abrasion due to accumulation of grease sounds reasonable and give me some relief that it is not an altered coin. First off, it seems unlikely (although not completely impossible) for the US Mint to send silver proof sets with coins willfully altered considering all the uproar they received about the the packaging of the W Pennies and the quality of the coins in some of the 2018-Reverse Proof Silver sets (mainly some of the coins showed being handled a bit more roughly than expected and a few proof sets showed air pockets in the case -- all things that could happen during the automated packaging or preparation process).

I am going to share this post with one of the writers at Numismatic News whose subject specialty is error coins.

Reluctant to send this silver proof out to ANACS only because I bought one of these and it would be easier to preserve the other coins in the government packaging than having the coins all spread out in capsules or try to assemble a set w/o the Native American dollar with my lack of experience.

What I may do as I live in New York City is check around for a shop that I can trust to check this set out and confirm it is an error and a coin worth sending out to be graded.

Just a side note, I learned from Coin Week that the 2018 Silver proof Set had the lowest mintage since silver proof sets were reintroduced back in 1992. Also sales of proof and mint sets were very low and at or near record low mintage levels. I bought a 2018 silver set and I like it very much - I think the 2019 ABT Quarter designs are stronger but the Native American dollar and the general quality of the set are very satisfactory. So the low mintage seems to be a nice bit of whipped topping! As for the 2019 issues, I think the opposite, I think they will have a mintage (silver, proof and uncirculated) that will be at the levels when State Quarters were being issued.

Anyway thanks again.
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 Posted 01/22/2020  9:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Finally got around to pictures. Took pics of the Native American dollar proofs - one from the Silver set and the other from the clad proof set. The one from the clad proof set has a legible and fairly clear 2019 S, the clad proof from the silver set only the S is legible while the year is practically obliterated (but with a magnifying glass it can be seen faintly).

My research has revealed this error does happen occasionally with the modern dollar coins (eg those since 2000) - more so with the Sacajewa and Native American dollars. But the ones I have seen listed for their value date back 10 years ago.

I have listed several questions before but the main one is has anyone here have had a coin with such an error appraised? Did the error really add value to it and have there been reports of this error on Native American dollars - in particular proofs?





Edited by coinnewcomer1
01/22/2020 11:02 pm
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