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1969 S Lincoln With Proof Edge

 
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 Posted 06/24/2019  7:53 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add jungliston1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello all. picked these up a few yrs and just pulled them out of their 2x2 cardboard holders. Both coins had "1969 S GEM BU Proof Like", so I bought them when I knew nothing about coins, because of that. Today I wanted to see a possible clash on the coin on the left. It is a weird clash location for some of the clashing in hand. Next to United, that could be the bottom of Lincolns coat. There are 2 other clash marks taht dont match up with the Overlay. That also happens to be the coin with the possible Proof Edge. Thank you for the help,
Edward M.





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 Posted 06/24/2019  9:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fplagge to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Forgive me, I am a numismatic rookie, but very little of your paragraph makes any sense to me. Either I do not understand the numismatics "language" or you aren't explaining things clearly.

Sorry.
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 Posted 06/24/2019  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Check Errers and Varietys's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like a regular Business Strike to me. What do the others think?
More information about Die Deterioration? http://goccf.com/t/317950
Retired U.S. Mint Coin Die Set information. http://goccf.com/t/302961
Machine Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/332421
Die states progression on coins. Scroll down, so you can see the different die state progressions. http://goccf.com/t/325638
Die Deterioration Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/336470
Split Plate Doubling Tutorial. http://goccf.com/t/357614
2000 P LMC With Retained Struck Through error. http://goccf.com/t/357080
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 Posted 06/24/2019  11:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jungliston1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello all, I do not mean the coins are Proofs(Were GEM BU "Proof Like"), when I purchased them. I mean the edge of a BU coin has a Proof edge. Here are some pics of the edge. The edge of the BU coin, I am inquring about has a sharp edge where it meets the Rim, like a Proof Coin. The BU strike edge has a more rounded edge where it meets the Rim. Is it possible to have a PR Edge on a BU Proof-Like strike coin? Or is this an Error,being a PR edge on a BU Strike? Thank you for the help,
Edward M.


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 Posted 06/24/2019  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen business strikes with the same edge thickness. All that means if that the setup was stronger on the blank turning it into a planchet. That year also struck normal business strike cents from San Francisco. But what is missing is the strike. The proof coins are struck twice. Making the design a lot stronger.

So your coins are a normal business strike coins. (The struck business strike cents with a 'S' mint mark from 1968-1974.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 06/25/2019  01:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jungliston1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello all, according to all the reading I have done, PR( Edge to Rim is Sharp), and BU( Edge to Rim is not). Coop, I even seen a Post you did about Matte Proofs and the Edges between the BU and MP. You metion a "Sharper Edge Like all other Proof coins", that is what this coin is exhibiting. It is a Sharp Rim to Edge, not a subtle rounding. (Think of it as a Edge reeding, If all PRs, got reeded and all BUs did not, then this BU coin got the PR reeding.) Thank you for your time,
Edward M.
Edited by jungliston1
06/25/2019 01:31 am
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 Posted 06/25/2019  01:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The sharper edge is on the inside of the rim. On the BS and matte proofs the rims are more squared and the rims on the BS are more rounded:

The rim are thicker and the edge is sharp on the inside edge of the rim.
But note on the image I posted earlier. Note the rims are more squared on the Proof coins and they are thicker. When you put them into a clear tube, you can get about 48 coins per tube where the BS coins you can get 51. So the edges are thicker. But as I mentioned earlier, I've seen these on cents in the 1996-99 era. When you fold them in your hand you can feel the difference even in a 2X2. But the biggest difference is the strike. Note how much stronger strike the proof coin has compared with the business strike above? That is what is different. Also the polished dies that is only used for 3,000 coins, 6,000 strike total and they are retired. That is what makes them a proof coin. That plus the polished dies. The strike on your coins are not a proof strike. A proof coin is from a separate way of making a coin. A business strike coin can never be a proof. If a proof coin is put into circulation and had wear/damage on the coin, it is still a proof coin, just impaired. So it not the rim that makes a proof, it the strike itself. Sure we use the rims for that matte proof coins. But on the business strike coins it is obvious that they are proof coins, even when they are found in circulation.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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 Posted 06/25/2019  02:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jungliston1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop, I understand the difference between the BU and PR.I am not saying the Obverse and Reverse or coins are Proofs. I am asking about the 3rd Side of the coins(Edge). Your response shifted me in another direction about the edge production. To clearify my original question, When the BUs 3rd Side(Edge) is produced on the upsetting machine, is it the same machine that produces the PRs 3rd Side? If it is, then I understand its look and why it would possibly look like a PRs edge. If it is not, and both PR and BU planchets are Upset on different machines, then that is why I was thinking the Edge was a PR and not a BU 3rd Side. Because this Planchet went through the PRs Upsetting Machine. Thank you for the help,
Edward M.
Some Rim and Edge Closeup of Sharpness.




Edited by jungliston1
06/25/2019 02:49 am
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 Posted 06/25/2019  06:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmm....
Wonder if this coin could be an example of a proof pair striking a "business strike" planchet.

As far as the clash goes, I can't really see the details in your images but does this link help for the 1969s counter clash [CCL(2)-1c-1969s-01] http://www.maddieclashes.com/cclt2-1c-1969s-01/ .
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 Posted 06/25/2019  07:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jungliston1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you Petespockets55, somewhat was I was thinking. After some more reading and pic looking, I have 2 theroies, if they are possible? 1. Could a few leftover already Prepared Proof Planchets be thrown into the BU strike run? 2. The Upset Machine set to PR Edge, but the Striking run was set for BU coins? Thank you for the help,
Edward M.
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 Posted 06/25/2019  08:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
1. Could a few leftover already Prepared Proof Planchets be thrown into the BU strike run?

Certainly possible but yours doesn't appear to have the high reflective finish of a proof.

I can't help you on whether the upset mill has a different setting for proof vs. business strikes. I wouldn't think so, but maybe.

I think the different sharpness on the rims would be a slight difference in the rim gutter since that forms the inside and face of rims. Not sure what causes the difference between proof and business strikes where the rim meets the outside edge, unless it has to do with the different striking pressures between the two types or slightly different heights of the collars.

Coop will probably know whether the mint ever repurposed proof dies to strike regular business planchets.
Edited by Petespockets55
06/25/2019 08:14 am
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 Posted 06/25/2019  3:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The extra strong rim on proof coins are caused by being struck twice. This give more detail to the coin plus the extra stength of the rim. The setup mill put a proto rim on the change from a blank into a planchet:

Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
06/25/2019 3:20 pm
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 Posted 06/25/2019  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jungliston1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Coop, how about the Edge( Not the Rim for Now)? When is the added?. If the Edge is added at this time( on Blank Planchet), is it made to look PR or BU? Is this Process similar to the reeding machine? Is the Edge (PR or BU), produced as a result of the Striking. Now the Rim. When the Proto Rim is added,is this Proto Rim added with a BU(Rounded) or PR(Square) 3rd Side(edge)? Will the Double Strike of PR cause a BU( Edge an RIM) rounded edge? Will the Single Strike of BU cause a PR( Edge and Rim) square edge? Thank you for the help,
Edward M.
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 Posted 06/25/2019  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The proof planchets do get burnished to attain that finish. The reflective edge would happen at the same time.
Edited by Petespockets55
06/26/2019 09:21 am
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 Posted 06/25/2019  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Halo1st to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In the case of cent production, I'm thinking the upset mill process is basically the same, be it used for proofs or business strikes. End result creates a planchet with a proto rim. The crisp raised edge and design rim or lack of has more to do with the applied pressure during the strike(s).

Applied pressure is adjustable in either case.

More food for thought in link below. Thanks, Doug.
https://www.coinworld.com/news/prec...om-norm.html
Second opinions are always recommended. Rookies thoughts!
Two sides to every coin. The edge makes three.
Side Note: Sometimes I feel like a nut, sometimes I don't.
Edited by Halo1st
06/25/2019 8:12 pm
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 Posted 06/25/2019  11:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jungliston1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello all, after reading the article posted by Halo1st, now more questions arise. Is it possible a US coin was Upset by a Foreign. Domination? Is this a LMC with some type of Experimental Upset? Here are some pics for you to play with. And please answer as if you were CRH. Thank you for the help,
Edward M.
1st two pics:Guess the BU Coin.
2nd two pics: Guess the the PR Coin.





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