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Ebay Item "Denier Henry I Brabant 1190-1235" Likely Not Genuine Per NGC

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2369 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2019  7:24 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
On another thread, the new NGC program offering "expert advice" on eBay items is being discussed discussed, and I decided to give it a try.

Here is the response I got from NGC today on this item which still has several days to run:

Dear -----,
An NGC expert has reviewed your request for this listing:
Fine Silver Denier Henry I, Duke of Brabant circa 1190 - 1235 AD (M156)
eBay Item Number: 323857540299

RESULTS:
Authenticity Opinion: Likely Not Genuine


Sharing this opinion in case anyone on the forum is looking at this item.

I encourage anyone else who uses this service to share the results on CCF.




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12766 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2019  7:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@tdz, either the listing has been pulled or there is a broken link. You didn't take screen shots of that piece did you? I'm thinking best is to also post the images here for posterity.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
Pillar of the Community
United States
2369 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2019  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting ...

The item was still there a few hours ago, when I posted the result on the TPG subforum. It indeed looks as though it now has been pulled, as its vanished from my watch list, too.

I will say that this coin has all the same features that made me suspicious: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Great-Silv...AOSwwrlcrjZx
Both were being offered by U.K. sellers.




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5175 Posts
 Posted 07/16/2019  8:31 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Easy to spot fake
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
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 Posted 07/16/2019  8:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok well I here are the pics from that second auction.

@GC, I'm not super-familiar with this series so I would be interested to understand what makes this piece so obviously a fake. Thx.




"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 07/16/2019  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree easy to spot.
Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/16/2019  10:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can make these comments based on the design:
- the banner obv is about half as long as catalog examples and recent auction examples. The staff to which it is attached is positioned farther left than other examples.
- reverse, there should not be annulets in all four corners of the cross (only 2, the other 2 being a differnt geometric motif)

Probably others are seeing other tells.

Here is the real deal: https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=l...=525&lot=693
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 Posted 07/16/2019  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The seller of the second coin seems to specialize in ridiculous fakes. https://www.ebay.com/sch/ancientrea...046732.m1684
Edited by Kushanshah
07/17/2019 02:33 am
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 Posted 07/17/2019  01:11 am  Show Profile   Check spruett001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spruett001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting. It seems the NGC "expert" is being very conservative in their opinion of what looks like a very easily identifiable 100% fake. I wouldn't have known, but with a comparison pic of the real deal, it's completely obvious.

I agree, we need to test this service and post results on CCF to evaluate its worth.

@kushanshah

Your link doesn't work for me. It seems all of their listings have been removed.
Tantum religio potuit suadere malorum.
-Lucretius

"Just because you're paranoid don't mean they're not after you."
-Kurdt Kobain

My Want List: http://goccf.com/t/282022
Edited by spruett001
07/17/2019 01:19 am
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 Posted 07/17/2019  05:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok thx @tdz for the explanation. I expect my Ghyssens to arrive in the next week or two and then I'll be able to compare for myself.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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2369 Posts
 Posted 07/17/2019  07:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Interesting. It seems the NGC "expert" is being very conservative in their opinion of what looks like a very easily identifiable 100% fake.

The service just provides 4 standard responses: likely genuine, likely not genuine, inconclusive, not eligible. No explanation, just one of these answers


Quote:
The seller of the second coin seems to specialize in ridiculous fakes.

...which often get a dozen or more bids and sell upwards of $50
Edited by tdziemia
07/17/2019 08:20 am
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 Posted 07/17/2019  1:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen these before, and as a newbie foolishly almost bid on one. Major red flag is a seller who is peddling dozens of rare coins from many different centuries and cultures, yet they all have the same general fabric and appearance - that is, struck in soft metal (lead?) with crudely copied dies.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2369 Posts
 Posted 08/03/2019  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Next up, these Polish offerings. I am curious if there are obvious tells that you guys can see. From viewpoint of the coin design, they are very good, especially the 1562 trojak (not a super rare or valuable coin, maybe $150-200 in that condition). The 1756 ort appears to have some some graininess on the surface. They are all getting bids. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Poland-Gro...AOSwe3ddIe39
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Poland-Tro...AOSwGk5dId~Y
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Poland-Ort...AOSwJO9dIdqt

It would be nice if it didn't cost $5 per coin to get them removed.
Edited by tdziemia
08/03/2019 08:25 am
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 Posted 08/03/2019  8:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The 1756 ort appears to have some some graininess on the surface.


Yes looks cast to me.
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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2369 Posts
 Posted 08/05/2019  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, I pulled the trigger on NGC authentication with the 1555 Groschen.
The 1562 trojak sold Saturday for $101 with 26 bids.
The 1756 ort is up to $62 with 21 bids and ends tomorrow.
The 1555 groschen would go for over $500 or more at an auction house.

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 Posted 08/06/2019  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Result obtained in under 24 hrs from NGC:

Dear -----,
An NGC expert has reviewed your request for this listing:
Poland Grosz litewski 1555 Zygmunt II August silver coin Grossus
eBay Item Number: 123859630543

RESULTS:
Authenticity Opinion: Likely Genuine
Grade Opinion: N/A


The item location is given as Poland in the listing, but the seller's location is given as Belarus. This makes me suspicious, but I'm certainly less an expert than the NGC folks.
If genuine, I suspect the winner will get a bargain. The best looking example of this coin I could find sold for 700 euros at auction this year, or something like $900 including a typical auction premium. https://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotv...81d6b2ed3b67
And this one us even sharper.
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