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1792 New Kleeberg Variety 92c-l55 Or A 1792 Peruvian 2 Reale Sized Button?

 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1484 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2019  11:59 am Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
See the attached images. Here are the current specifics on the item:

1. 28.58 mm, 5.3 grams, cancellation hole obverse.

2. Hallmark triple box type either RHP or RWP. I believe RHP as I believe the uprights are just not perfectly upright in H.

3. Plain Edge.

4. Crude lettering and note KEX for REX in reverse legend.

5. XRF analysis: None at this time. Appears lighter than Ag - perhaps some tin based alloy. Will be performed in the coming weeks. Silver alloys and Debased silver alloys are prohibited from entering this counterfeit Family. In the meantime your opinions ...

Some collectors consider this a 1792 Peruvian button. Although we see metal fallout in the central obverse area this appears not to be from a clasp removal? But it could be?

Comments - opinions. Anyone ever see this three compartment hallmark before? RHP or RWP.




Edited by colonialjohn
09/15/2019 12:07 pm
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 Posted 09/15/2019  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The lettering (including Roman numerals) in the legend does not look at all right. Just a first impression.

Edit: Obverse of a genuine 1792 Peru coin, 2 reales:
Edited by tdziemia
09/15/2019 3:44 pm
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 Posted 09/15/2019  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The question here is NOT is it real? Its not ... the questions are:

1. Is it an off-metal contemporary circulating counterfeit of the period? TBD by XRF.

2. Is it a button type 2 Reale like the Peruvian 8R 1805's in Gurney but of a 2R denomination?

3. Is it a contemporary circulating counterfeit (of the period or slightly later) once made into a button?

4. Any ideal of this silversmith hallmark?

I normally post here ONLY difficult inquires ... <BG>.

JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
09/15/2019 6:27 pm
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 Posted 09/15/2019  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mea culpa for missing the point

I would just comment that it's hard to believe it ever could have been a serious attempt at counterfeiting since even a greenhorn like me could tell.

Edited by tdziemia
09/15/2019 8:52 pm
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 Posted 09/16/2019  09:25 am  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Its been determined or voted as a button on another channel (Yahoo CCC group). The style, mint, surfaces (slight damage from some clasp removal?) on the obverse is in many ways SIMILAR to the buttons seen in Gurney's book on page 175 for these Peruvian 8R 1805 buttons. This is a much more rare lower denomination dated 1792. It also has a hallmark on the piece something not to EXPECT on a CCC. No other off-metal Kleeberg CCC 2R in existence has a hallmark and I never seen a hallmark even a debased Ag issue which are more common CCC's for 2R's.

Hence ... BUTTON. See CopperClem on the Internet if you have interest in this piece.

JPL
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 Posted 09/18/2019  5:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John, this is likely one of the Egyptian jeweler imitations dating from the early 1900s.
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 Posted 09/18/2019  5:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a reminder, a useful site on the Argentina button types:

http://goccf.com/t/273648
http://www.botonistica.es/catalogo/seccion2-4.html
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 Posted 09/20/2019  3:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
See the last 2 pieces:


Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 10/03/2019  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Check colonialjohn's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher - yes we agreed among us so-called experts it was a button - but you certainly put the FINAL nail in the coffin.

JPL
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Spain
96 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2019  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Veton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are right, it is a Cairo jeweler work. The al-Sagha district had (and has) a jeweler market. Silver official marks in Egypt are three: first to the left richness (in arabic); central (cat for silver 1916-1946); and the right one is a letter in arabic or roman that indicates the year (in yours is a P that correspods to 1939-1940).

Link for botonistica.es catalogue has changed http://www.botonistica.es/catalogo19/pgeneral.html in page 8 we can find Cairo Saga Series

Edited by Veton
12/12/2019 05:22 am
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 Posted 12/12/2019  05:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Veton to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
About the use of this items, usually they were used as medals, pendants more than buttons. Also as part of pendants in Zar rituals (see #HSO6 in CEMI Catalogue).
In order to date them I attach this table:


Egyptian silver hallmark are usually three, sometimes only the first to the left (richness and city). They hallmarked silver works with a cat from 1916 to 1946 and with a lotus flower since 1946 (center hallmark).



Items without hallmarks may be previous to 1916 or non silvermade (white metal, copper...) and also non-legitimate items (old or current: tourist sourvenir).

I will try to read hallmarks from those of realeswatcher
Edited by Veton
12/12/2019 05:22 am
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