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1916-S 5c Buffalo Nickel With No Initial Under Date & Large Embedded MM

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 Posted 09/26/2019  9:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Picked this up for $52. Ron Pope's abraded Buffalo nickel reference lists date varieties missing Fraser's [the designer's] initial under the date. But Pope does not list a known die with the missing initial for the 1916-S. A new variety?

In addition, the coin shows a large mintmark that appears punched into the E in FIVE, rather than the usual lower location.

Thoughts on grade and problems? Thanks!




Edited by numismatic student
09/26/2019 9:10 pm
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 Posted 09/26/2019  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
VF35, no apparent problems, nice score!
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 Posted 09/26/2019  10:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. In my mind I think it is at least xf. The horn is full and rounded. Also the fur on the head is really well struck and full as well as the fur in the back. Tail also looks fully split. The obverse looks a little weakly struck, but hopefully it is the picture that is a little out of focus. Will post pics when it comes in.
Edited by numismatic student
09/26/2019 10:12 pm
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 Posted 09/26/2019  10:20 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I wouldn't object at all to XF40.
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 Posted 09/26/2019  10:24 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think XF as well. Interesting coin. I noticed you've been getting into Buffalo nickels a lot lately, what set, if one, are you going for?
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 Posted 09/26/2019  10:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is a known counterfeit 1916-S Buff that is missing the designer's initial. Yes, counterfeit 1916-S, as ridiculous as that seems.

Would you be willing to post a high resolution photo of the area from the rim through the second feather to the back of the neck? I think I see a die crack in that area, and that's one of the markers for the counterfeit.

I'll search my photo library to see if I can find my photos of the counterfeit. I know there was some buzz about it a few years ago at the National Money Show when it was in Portland, whatever year that was.

Here's the area of interest on your coin:

Edited by fortcollins
09/26/2019 10:51 pm
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 Posted 09/26/2019  11:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I haven't found my photos of the counterfeit yet, but I found my notes. I don't have a date on the notes, though.

transfer counterfeit
muled dies, circulated 1916 obverse with higher grade 1920s reverse
mm is off, wrong style
big crack feather 2 to head
flattened rims
correct weight and specific gravity
first ones grainy, counterfeiter polished dies during minting, later coins better struck, no idea when die cracks appeared
nobody knows why he picked a common date
Fraser's initial didn't transfer to dies
started appearing a couple years ago
no clue who/when/where/how many/why
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 Posted 09/26/2019  11:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks fc. I don't have the coin yet, but will certainly post clear pics when I get it. Appreciate your ongoing help.
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 Posted 09/27/2019  12:49 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mark me down for Counterfeit as well MM is way off leg details mushy .
As stated this is a known counterfeited date!
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 Posted 09/27/2019  01:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CoinWorld wrote an article on the 1916-S 5c counterfeit called "Counterfeiters target common Buffalo nickel" on July 24, 2015:
https://www.coinworld.com/news/prec...-nickel.html

The article has a picture of the counterfeit and the markers can be seen.



The die crack at 8:30 on the known counterfeit:

My coin does not appear to have this die crack:

The fake also shows the mintmark:

It appears different from my coin because the MM is not touching the E in FIVE. In my coin, the S is touching or embedded in the E in FIVE. In addition, the S mm in the fake is close to and touching the rim whereas the S mm on my coin is far away from the rim:


It is possible that there was more than one set of counterfeit dies made and the counterfeit dies were different, but this known documented fake coin does not appear to match the coin I purchased.
Edited by numismatic student
09/27/2019 01:38 am
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 Posted 09/27/2019  02:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is another example of the 1916-S 5c with pictures (In a CCF thread - only the best ):
http://goccf.com/t/49138

Again, the S mintmark is close to the rim in the 2nd fake coin. Both known examples seem to be low grade examples.


In both fakes illustrated, the 6 in the date is more or less level with the other digits in the date. In my coin the 6 is significantly below the level of the other digits.
My coin:

Fake #1:

Fake #2:
Edited by numismatic student
09/27/2019 09:26 am
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 Posted 09/27/2019  02:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Another discussion seems to indicate that: "Counterfeit examples are not found above VF due to the poor quality of the dies."

This appears consistent with the two sets of pictures of counterfeits.

This same discussion indicates: "The 1916-S contemporary counterfeit is known to have at least two different obverse and reverse dies. The first pair of dies has a bison that appears to be anorexic, and an Indian profile, while similar, is markedly different than the Indian profile on a genuine coin The second set of dies has an Indian and a buffalo closer in appearance to the appearance of a genuine nickel and is thought to be the counterfeiter's attempt to "get it right". Is there any additional information?"

We have seen two examples of counterfeits. Neither seems to be well executed.
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 Posted 09/27/2019  09:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a genuine 1916-S 5c buffalo currently for sale @ Heritage in a PCGS slab: https://coins.ha.com/itm/buffalo-ni...bnail-071515

Note that the MM is embedded like mine and also the MM is far apart from the rim. Looks like the MM in my coin is very similar and it is consistent with known real coins.

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 Posted 09/27/2019  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To me this is a solid EF-40, if not 45.
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 Posted 09/27/2019  10:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think XF as well. Interesting coin. I noticed you've been getting into Buffalo nickels a lot lately, what set, if one, are you going for?

I don't really put sets together. I used to be a type collector but after a while I lost interest when I hit the big $ stoppers. I really like looking around and buying what I like. I don't go into it looking for something ex-ante, but just sift through lots of junk and sometimes something stands out. Sometimes what stands out is the condition, other times rarity, or price, but most often it is the story the coin tells. When I bought a couple of 1835 dimes recently it made me think that these coins were around at the time of Andrew Jackson's fight against the Bank of the U.S.

Why buffaloes? I find them interesting. The design is really different from the 19th century classic, early 20th century deco, and modern designs. It is distinctly American rather than European with the iconic buffalo and the composite of 3 famous indian chiefs.
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 Posted 09/27/2019  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A nice looking EF-45 with a strong horn. This one looks genuine to me.
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