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George V Sovereign Is It Genuine?

 
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Australia
3 Posts
 Posted 09/28/2019  08:29 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Chimuti 1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi, I am not a coin collector but I have a 1917 gold sovereign which gas been in the family for 70 years. I have studied all of the many forgeries that were made of this coin and I can't see any of them that are present in my coin.
I would appreciate any advice relating to the validity of the coin?
If it appears to be a forgery I would be obliged if the reasons for this were pointed out.
Regards.

Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16310 Posts
 Posted 09/28/2019  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
With these pictures, The King's image and legend on the obverse of the coin,
is in mirror reverse !
I have never seen THAT before.
The King's image looks to be 'pasty'

With these pictures, it is very difficult to confirm if there is a mint mark above the date.
Need to post a high magnification picture of the date area.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4081 Posts
 Posted 09/28/2019  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Lucky Cuss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


In magnifying the photos posted, I can't detect a mint mark. I concur with the above reply that the mirror image is seemingly bizarre, but if this picture was derived from a film negative that was inadvertently reversed, it could then be explainable.

One thing that ought to be done is to weigh it to at least a tenth of a gram accuracy, and also to get dimensions (diameter & thickness) to a tenth of a millimeter.

Colligo ergo sum
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United States
80942 Posts
New Member
Australia
3 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2019  06:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chimuti 1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Further to my last posting:
Sorry about the 'reverse mirror' image, it was a scanning fault.
There is no mint listed above the date, therefore I guess it was minted in London?
I have attached updated images, hope they help in viewing?
The weight of the coin is 7.98 grams.
Regards.


Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16310 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2019  07:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"George V Sovereign is it Genuine?"

Some further research suggests that the question posed is indeed a good one.

Both KM and NGC World Coin Values list a 1917 London Mint Sovereign at a value of $12,000 in MS60.

At that sort of value lies the very great attraction to fake such a coin, and use recycled gold from common sovereigns. Many high quality fakes of high numismatic value sovereigns in genuine 22 ct (.917 fine) gold do indeed exist, and have been warned against in such publications as
Coincraft's Standard Catalogue of English & UK Coins.

This particular needs to be examined in hand by a numismatic professional.
Take it to Downies in Melbourne, or Noble Numimatics in Sydney. They would have the best experience and technical resources in Australia to authenticate it.
You could, perhaps, get yourself in deep legal strife by attempting to sell it as an (unknowingly) fake coin.

That is is why there is an imperative need to have it authenticated, THEN, perhaps have it slabbed. It MUST however be authenticated, before it is cross authenticated by a TPG.


THEN, everyone will be happy.

One question remains, which a numismatic professional will ask:
From which source did it originate?
Edited by sel_69l
09/29/2019 07:59 am
New Member
Australia
3 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2019  09:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chimuti 1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you sel_691 for your input - much appreciated!
I visited the Perth Mint in Western Australia yesterday and they weighed the coin as 7.93 grams and 23 Carat fine.
Everything seems to point to the fact that I have a very valuable coin?
Could anyone suggest where I should go from here?
I am obviously reluctant to let the coin out of my sight for fear of substitution, but I guess I have to have it certified as genuine?
Your last question is a good one, regarding where the coin originated? I think my answer too is a good one?
My mother in law who now is 90 years old was working in a clothing factory in Hong Kong. As a wedding gift the 600+ fellow employees gave her the sovereign as a wedding present in 1948. When I married her daughter in 1975 it was given to us as a wedding present.
Somehow I can't see why the coin could be counterfeit?
Regards.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16310 Posts
 Posted 10/06/2019  7:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I fully understand your reluctance to let to coin out of your sight.
I fully believe the explanation of provenance.
With this provenance however, there remains the possibility
that the coin may have had the mint mark C (Canada Ottowa) M (Melbourne) S (Sydney) or P (Perth) professionally removed from an otherwise genuine coin.

This why it needs to be examined in hand by a numismatic professional, who knows what he is looking for.

Certainly, if a serious collector was was wishing to buy a 1917 London Mint (no mint mark) sovereign, he would want to be very sure that it has been independently verified at the highest level possible.

Unfortunately, I can't tell with screen shots.
Edited by sel_69l
10/07/2019 04:16 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
1392 Posts
 Posted 10/16/2019  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How has this not had more interest?!

Your fellow Aussie advised you correctly - go to one of your major firms, Downies in Melbourne, or Noble Numimatics in Sydney, for an assessment. Is there an office of one of those (or of one of the major UK houses) on your west coast? Poster mentioned going to the Perth Mint...

After that, it really should be slabbed by one of the two big Yank graders, PCGS or NGC.

The piece certainly looks to be a genuine sovereign from a distance, and of course the story sounds good... but you never know about a removed mintmark or? As noted, rarities of course do lend themselves to that (has been done for many decades).

Within the last year, the American firm Heritage sold an MS63 graded piece for USD $28,000 incl. buyer's premium... and an MS65 for $50,000 incl. BP!

sel_69l... how well do the Aussie firms do on major English rarities, results-wise?
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16310 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2019  02:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The experts at Downies in Melbourne and
Noble Numismatics in Sydney
are specialists in sovereigns, and are at least equal the the best in the World with sovereign authenticity. It is their 'bread and butter'.
Valued Member
Australia
313 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2019  02:39 am  Show Profile   Check OneDollarMule's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add OneDollarMule to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you're based in Perth, you can take it to Sterling and Currency in Freo for a 2nd opinion. Andrew is knowledgeable and a PCGS dealer. I'm not sure why you need to authenticate before sending to PCGS as they will authenticate the coin (I guess to save you the expense if it is fake?).

If the coin is fake its most likely a jeweler's copy which I have seen many of and many which look extremely good.
Take a gander at my latest listings: https://www.ebay.com.au/sch/merchan...numismatics/
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
16310 Posts
 Posted 10/17/2019  07:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sterling Currency rely on PCGS and slab all of their more valuable items that they sell.
That makes it easier for them to get on with their business, with less of their responsibility.

At least, any customer of theirs will know for sure that the slabbed coins that they sell are authenticated through PCGS.

I am even more positive that Noble Numismatics or Downies have an even a stronger knowledge base than PCGS for the authentication of the OP's sovereign.

A 'belts and braces' approach:
Authentication by Downies or noble Numismatics, then get it slabbed. That way, there is less probability of the coin being substituted after it has been authenticated by either Downies or Noble Numismatics.

That is about as close as you can get to a 100% authentication, and be a a 'no brainer' seller on the international auction market.
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