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1922 'no D' Lincoln Wheat Cent. Lots Of Toning. But Need Grading/Advice

 
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 Posted 12/08/2019  10:39 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Greetings folks. Below is a 1922 'No D' 1C that is in not too bad a shape considering other similar cents of that year. This being toned, but does have wear and some potential environmental damage (small pitting on Reverse...maybe). Slight rim bend at ~11 O'clock, above 'GOD' (or picture distortion)?

Pictures do seem to show no D mm, but pictures can be deceiving. Also counterfeited versions out there, though I don't think this one is that.

(I do have a 1922 'No D' I got for pocket change, and will post soon as an FYI. It's in not too good shape/stained maybe, and not sure about No D, but will post separately).

So what do you all think about this one? I do not have it and just considering. More concerned about authenticity than grading. Here ya go (best pics at moment):





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 Posted 12/09/2019  12:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I honestly cannot tell from those pictures whether your coin is genuine or not.
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 Posted 12/09/2019  12:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Clearly a strong reverse, but the obverse doesn't match die pair 2 since it has a weak second 2 and distinct L in Liberty. I suspect it's not genuine.
Edited by Zurie
12/09/2019 03:32 am
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 Posted 12/09/2019  12:21 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was worried it wasn't real but wasn't gonna be the first to open my mouth
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 Posted 12/09/2019  01:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow. So is this a total fake, as a manufactured fake from scratch? Or authentic but tampered with on the devices? Toning, etc.? If mismatched Dies, or bogus Dies, sounds like a total fake. Hmmm.

And apologize as these are only pictures available. But based on the other comments, sounds like there may be enough to ding this as suspect. I did ask a NGC TPG to look at it via their on-line service. Be interesting what they say, unless they also claim the pictures are not clear enough to make a determination.

I will let you all know what they say. Should have an answer by tomorrow. Either way, with this much right off the bat doubt, I think I got my answer. Stay clear. But more to come. Ok
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 Posted 12/09/2019  01:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The second 2 appears to have "some" weakness but is it "weak" enough? I don't know.

The spotting/toning is very distracting.

With coins like this you have to wonder why it is not already conserved and slabbed. Only the Seller can answer that!

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 Posted 12/09/2019  01:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Westernsky..THAT is my exact thought when I see these coins for sale, and ask why has this not been slabbed and a big payday for someone, or, just authenticity and Value validated, and in someone's collection? Another way to put it...if it's too good to be true, it probably is.

BUT...there are those folks out there that just want to unload items like these, have some knowledge, but want that quick cash and go away happy.

Anyway....this is a perfect example why we all come here to bounce these things off the experienced brain housing group knowledge banks, to avoid a waste of hard earned dollars. :-)

Of course CC is here for many others coin related discussions, but this one is a wallet protector. It's clear to me that staying away is the prudent move. But will follow up on NGC input, if any, and other comments. On we go.....
Edited by BuyGuns
12/09/2019 02:35 am
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 Posted 12/09/2019  06:57 am  Show Profile   Check edweather's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NG. Not a weak reverse, and the obverse doesn't match a strong reverse. Probably a cast counterfeit. Look forward to seeing your other one.
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 Posted 12/09/2019  08:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One-look fake, sorry.
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 Posted 12/09/2019  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Aside from what has already been mentioned, the shape of the second 2 appears wrong.
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 Posted 12/09/2019  2:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This one is a YUGE Pass....

Yes All...last night I looked at a lot of comparisons. I concur with all of you the '2' was not even close. The 'L' was also suspect as noted by Zurie/westernsky. But again, you were all 100% correct. You guys saved me serious coin on this one, had I bidded it up. Plus I got to see what these four sets of Dies that were used should show on the various 1922 series. Very interesting. Much appreciated.

edweather....I already posted the other not so stellar 1922 potential 'No D' Lincoln under the modern coins and errors section. That one is not gradable IMO, and more a project to 'maybe' clean up to at least have a 1922 No D (if it is a No 'D'...and I have never cleaned a coin by the way), but got that one for pocket change. It does look authentic though on Obverse, but weak Reverse, so? Stained to. So you can see it if you like.

Though being a tattle-tale is abhorrent to me, in this case I make an exception. I am reporting it as a fake because no one should get caught unaware and waste their hard earned money on this coin. It is anathema. Even if seller is oblivious to this fact.

AND...I had NGC look at the toned 1922 in this thread for authenticity via their on-line service. An excellent service for these kinds of questions, not having to commit to a purchase before a Pro review. I knew you guys were right by the way, but I was curious what they would say. This was their unsurprising reply:

--------------------------------------------------------

An NGC expert has reviewed your request for this listing:
1922 Lincoln Wheat cent Key Date Tone Die#2 No Mint Mark

RESULTS:

Authenticity Opinion: Likely Not Genuine
Grade Opinion: N/A

ORDER DETAILS:
Order Number: ER2148993
Order Date (EST): 12/9/2019
Purchase Price: $5
Thank you,
NGC

----------------------------------------------------------

And just an FYI for other comers, or members like me, 'Pebble of the Community'....this is from "The Lincoln Cent Resource":

All 1922 weak D or No D coins fall into one of 7 categories:
1. Die Pair #1 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
2. Die Pair #1 No D (Weak Reverse)
3. Die Pair #2 No D (Strong Reverse) also called 1922 Plain
4. Die Pair #3 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
5. Die Pair #3 No D (Weak Reverse)
6. Die Pair #4 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
7. Die Pair #4 No D (Weak Reverse)

Below is an explanation of how to classify the four Die Pairs:

Die Pair #1:
The easiest way to classify Die Pair #1 is the Jogging Die
Crack running from L in Pluribus through O in One.
However, this die crack is not always present. Also, be
aware that there exists a 1922 D variety with a straight die
crack in the same location.
The second 2 in date is weaker than the first 2.
The first T in Trust is more distinct than the other letters.
Furthermore, the T, U, and T in TRUST are stronger than
the R and S.
WE is very mushy.
Reverse is very weak, usually with no lines in the wheat ears.
Mintmark ranges from Weak to No D.

Die Pair #2:
Absolutely no trace of a D
Second 2 in date is sharper than the first 2.
All letters in TRUST are sharp.
WE is only slightly mushy.
L in LIBERTY butts up against the rim.
Reverse is sharp with nice wheat lines.

Die pair #3:
Second 2 in date is weaker than first 2.
TRUST is weak but sharper than IN GOD WE.
L in LIBERTY butts up against the rim.
The reverse is slightly rotated counterclockwise
Reverse is weak -- lower left part of O in ONE begins to
spread into the field as the die deteriorates. Reverse looks "wavy"
Mintmark ranges from Weak to No D.

Die Pair #4
"The front of Lincoln's coat from about 4 o'clock to 5 o'clock
appears to merge into the rim whereas Dies 1-3 all have a
regular pronounced gap between the coat
and rim. This merging is responsible for Die 4's nickname,
"coattails." The reverse is noted for its weak high point detail,
similar to Die 1 and Die 3."
Edited by BuyGuns
12/09/2019 4:08 pm
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 Posted 12/09/2019  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First time I saw anyone use that NGC service for active eBay listings. It's a great service to get a TPG opinion before you bid, and it's nice to see that they'll commit to an answer based on photos alone (although this one was probably pretty easy for them).
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 Posted 12/09/2019  3:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes Zurie. An excellent service indeed. Just like CC. I used them a number of times with great results. This is first UNAUTHENTIC replied to. I was concerned the pictures would result in a cannot review due to marginal pictures, but there was enough there to see it was a fake.

Anyway...as I said, I'm reporting it so no one else gets ripped off. NGC review gives it the credibility needed for an easy removal. Sorry to the seller if they are unaware it's fake, but that's the breaks. Onward we go.....
Edited by BuyGuns
12/09/2019 3:15 pm
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 Posted 12/09/2019  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BuyGuns to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Update: reported coin as fake. Amazingly they do not just remove it. Has to go through their Trust & Safety dept. But that does not mean they will guarantee removal. They said they have the safety net of the process where you make a claim for a refund once the buyer realizes it is a fake, which I stated we all understand that, but why let it ride and have that long drawn out process occur? Just remove. But at least they are elevating it.

OK...enough beating this dead horse. Thanks for all the help.
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 Posted 12/09/2019  8:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The portrait tells me fake, it's too weak and doesn't look right to me. It also appears the coin was messed with in an attempt to hide the deception.
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