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What To Do? Restoration Of 1909-S VDB LWC?

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 Posted 01/27/2020  9:49 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add KLF to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
*** Edited by Staff to Add Year / Mintmark / Denomination to Title. Titles are Important! ***

I am trying to understand the "restoration" process as practiced by someone such as PCGS.
Particularly for copper coins.

This 1909-S VDB spent years in an old Whitman holder (11x14 card- copyright date 1938).
The lower right on the reverse is what I believe to be a remnant of glue from that holder.

PCGS grades this coin "Genuine UNC Details (94 - Altered Surf.)"
It is presently in their possession.
While there, would there be any benefit in having them do their "restoration" magic?
The questions are (1) could they do anything, (2) what result might be reasonably expected, (3) would it be beneficial and (4) would it be cost effective?
For that matter, is there anything I might look at doing myself?
Thanks for any feedback.

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 Posted 01/27/2020  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not really. There appears to be glue residue in the lower right reverse. Also, due to the evident staining and odd luster; I'd guess the staining was way worse at some point and was removed improperly, not to mention the corrosion booger. Sorry to say it, but it deserves a details designation.
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 Posted 01/27/2020  10:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add atticguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since it's already a "details" coin, I guess it wouldn't hurt it any more to let a TPG clean it again, although it shouldn't raise it's value any higher.
Personally, I'd be happy with it just the way it is now.
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 Posted 01/27/2020  10:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would agree and strongly suggest leaving well enough alone.



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Edited by Coinfrog
01/27/2020 10:21 pm
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 Posted 01/28/2020  01:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add acloco to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Would you take some pictures in natural sunlight?

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 Posted 01/28/2020  05:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think I just read it costs like $11 to have it conserved,if that is true I would have them do it.
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 Posted 01/28/2020  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KenKat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You could try a pure acetone soak to see if that removes any of the residue.
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 Posted 01/28/2020  10:15 pm  Show Profile   Check BadThad's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If they think they can save it, it's well worth the money. PCGS and NCS won't attempt to conserve a coin unless they strongly think they can be successful.

GOOD LUCK!
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 Posted 01/31/2020  11:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KLF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a short followup to some of the comments here - I do now wish I had tried acetone prior to submitting it for grading. It doesn't appear that would have harmed anything and might have removed the glue, which is my primary concern as that appears to be what has prevented receiving a grade.
But I can't really say I have learned much here and I still have little grasp of what "restoration" by PCGS would mean, especially with regard to copper coins such as this one. It could very well be that they do an acetone treatment.

I presently have no way of taking additional images since I do not have the coin here - the images I provided were done with a scanner and Photoshop.

As to the cost of "restoration" by PCGS - I wish it was $11, but that is likely off by nearly an order of magnitude.
On a coin such as this that PCGS refers to as "regular" (value between $300 and $2500), they charge their standard grading fee of $35, plus handling of $10, plus shipping of $22 (up to $1000 value).

So that's a $67 gamble just to get started - regardless of result.

But there is also a
"3% Guarantee Premium on the coin's value in it's final grade (min. of $10). PCGS will determine all fees once the order is finalized." https://www.PCGS.com/restoration


So if we assume that PCGS determines the final value to be $1100, the additional premium is $33 and shipping bumps up to $28 (as it does for values over $1000).

Final total cost (using the given assumptions) - $106.

For perspective, I am dealing with the liquidation of estate assets including the coin here and a few others that likely have similar value. So MY primary goal is the immediate or short-term ROI, although that is not to say that I am in a rush.

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 Posted 01/31/2020  1:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

For that coin I'd tell them to do whatever they can to make it look better. The additional cost is to trivial to worry about with that coin.
just carl
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 Posted 01/31/2020  1:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It is presently in their possession.

Right there you are saving $22 shipping.
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 Posted 01/31/2020  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T-BOP to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The only thing I can tell you is don't mess with that coin yourself . I would go for the conservation by TPG .
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 Posted 01/31/2020  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pennyroach to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did they recommend the coin for conservation? To me I think theres no saving the coin, it is what it is from the looks of it. They would probably reject doing anything to it...
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 Posted 02/01/2020  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KLF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My speculation is that the lack of grade (specified as 94 - Altered Surf.) is due to the substance showing on the reverse, which could be a relatively treatable issue.

I will note that "THEY" don't do anything until you submit a coin AND payment.
And even then they don't provide a recommendation, at least so far as I know.

At their discretion, they either (1) do nothing or (2) "restore" the coin
If they choose to restore the coin, it is a "black box" operation. As far as I am aware, they do not provide options such as "For this coin we can do A and/or B - how do you wish to proceed?"
And nothing along the lines of "If we do A, the potential benefit is abc and the risk is xyz"

And, in any case, the submission agreement includes a full page of fine print.
But, quickly summarized - there are no guarantees, and they completely disclaim any responsibility for the results.

Bottom line appears to be "you pays your money and you takes your chances."

I am describing what I am seeing in my exploration of the restoration option, but I have not yet gone through the process. The descriptions offered by PCGS are vague at best. And so far, despite the handful of opinions being offered, nobody commenting here has described any firsthand experience.

If anyone has had a firsthand experience of restoration/conservation of a copper coin, I would love to hear it.
Edited by KLF
02/01/2020 3:38 pm
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 Posted 02/01/2020  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But I can't really say I have learned much here and I still have little grasp of what "restoration" by PCGS would mean, especially with regard to copper coins such as this one. It could very well be that they do an acetone treatment.


Quote:
If they choose to restore the coin, it is a "black box" operation. As far as I am aware, they do not provide options such as "For this coin we can do A and/or B - how do you wish to proceed?"
And nothing along the lines of "If we do A, the potential benefit is abc and the risk is xyz"


Because some of the methods and are proprietary. There's a reason why the people that know how to really do this never disclose it even if they don't work for the TPGs. Anyone that knows all the ways can do VERY well restoring coins


Quote:
I will note that "THEY" don't do anything until you submit a coin AND payment.


PCGS generally charges you when the order is complete, NGC generally charges when they receive it.

Also your restoration charges for PCGS where did you get that info? The last time I looked they didn't line up with what you said but they could have changed
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 Posted 02/02/2020  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KLF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Because some of the methods and are proprietary. There's a reason why the people that know how to really do this never disclose it even if they don't work for the TPGs.

That seems fairly obvious and I wasn't expecting that they divulge trade secrets. But my point was that you submit a coin and they either do something or they don't - entirely at their discretion and without mention of options or discussion of potential benefits or risks of their choice. Please correct me if you can describe your experience that is different.

Quote:
PCGS generally charges you when the order is complete, NGC generally charges when they receive it.

Splitting hairs here. PCGS requires an authorized form of payment IN ADVANCE. And all the fees are charged regardless of what they do. Including the mandatory minimum "Guarantee Premium" which effectively becomes the non-optional "evaluation" fee on top of the shipping and grading fees. They offer no submitter-choice inexpensive "evaluation only" option.


Quote:
Also your restoration charges for PCGS where did you get that info? The last time I looked they didn't line up with what you said but they could have changed

Although I have not yet used the service, I completed a "submission" form from the link I previously posted, which includes all the pricing information I quoted. https://www.PCGS.com/restoration
A PCGS phone rep told me things have changed (which means little to me) but please post your experience with the PCGS restoration services for comparison.
Again, I would love to hear feedback from someone about their experience with TPG (or any) restoration/conservation of copper coins.
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