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Same 1913 5 Cents , Two Different Price...

 
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Valued Member
Canada
142 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2020  7:08 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Dollar 1935 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi, I just wanted to share whit you this really interesting case of a nice coin who was sold at Heritage Auction in the collection of M. Mossman ( NGC Ms-66 ) . It realized a modest 336.00 us $ :

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/wor...bnail-071515

The coin was submited to PCGS and came back ms-67. It was consigned to Heritage again, around 4 months after the initial sale but this time the auction results are truly spectacular whit a final price of $2,400.00 (714% of the previous price ).

https://coins.ha.com/itm/canada/wor...bnail-071515
Edited by Dollar 1935
01/28/2020 9:31 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3158 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2020  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@dollar1935, were you the lucky beneficiary of this large price increase?
Valued Member
Canada
142 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2020  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dollar 1935 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sadly, no. But I was considering buying it at the first sale
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2269 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2020  7:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
3 points for colour!!

Dip that coin and I would bet you $100 ICCS wouldn't grade it higher than ms64.

First buyer had brains.

Second buyer was just chasing a high Registry number and obviously has more money than brains.
Pillar of the Community
United States
6168 Posts
 Posted 01/28/2020  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And break it out and resubmit and you never know what it would get graded as. This is what I dislike about grading companies. They have altered the focus off of the coins themselves...you know...the historic round disk items inside the plastic.


A person who enjoys what the labels say is having fun in their own way. And that is what a hobby is about.

But it still reminds me of the Beanie Baby collectors of years ago. There is no actual inherent value in that plastic, paper, and ink surrounding the coin. The grade is a non-verifiable, subjective opinion that disappears once the coin is broken out. Yet people pay thousands more. Hey...its their money!
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Pillar of the Community
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United States
2753 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2020  07:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not only have TPG's altered the focus away from the coins themselves, they have allowed "grading creep" to occur. And old 64 is now a 66, a 62 becomes a 64, etc. And it's all about the fight for the money that should be staying in collector's pockets as TPG's compete against each other.... recertify, recertify!
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Canada
8849 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2020  10:29 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
All might be true. But grading is highly subjective, and sometimes the graders don't get it right the first time. We all have stories here about picking a cherry that was undergraded, whether it was raw or in a Third Party Grader slab.

I buy nicer coins, and do have registry sets. But, eye appeal, quality of the strike and problem-free coins are the main pass/fail criteria for me; then I examine the coin and grade it with my own eyes. If my grade is less than the slab's grade, I don't buy it. If my grade is better than what I think the slab says - I buy it, and sometimes even resubmit to another grading company. This is especially true for bronze cents that have toned - I just cannot understand the logic of Canadian grading companies have when putting a hard ceiling of MS-63, or rarely MS-64, on a red-brown or lustrous brown cent with almost flawless surfaces.

Perhaps there is a backstory to this coin, that we are unaware of...
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Pillar of the Community
United States
6168 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2020  2:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@SPP
The way you collect slabs is wise. I can understand someone having a lot of fun with the regisrty sets.

You are intelligent enough to inspect the goods for what they are. Unfortunately many newbies automatically think these TPGs are correct no matter what since, after all, "everyone" buys and sells slabs from these "respected" and "expert: companies. My main problem is that these companies just seem like modern day snake oil salesmen to me.

A verifiable grading system has been within our reach for decades and yet the subjectivity remains (profits are easier this way). Personally I beleive with the infra red (no problem with lighting) identification scanner in modern iphones, that a phone app that was at least as good, if not much better than the current systems could be made (30,000 data points in an instant are analysed!).

The PCGS "Guarantee" is part of what reminds me of "Dr. Cureall's Remedy" of the 1800s. Read it:https://www.PCGS.com/guarantee

They guarantee the coin to be graded according to their procedures...uh...yeah. Dr. Cureall would likely have guaranteed he was the one who filled the bottles also.

Oh...of course there is a guarantee that if you think they overgraded they will dumb the grade down down for you:

Excuse me Mr. PCGS, I think this MS68 $1,000 coin-because-of-label is really ony an $800.00 MS67. Rather than sell it for a higher price on ebay, your guarantee says you will pay me the higher market value. Now of course your guarantee says YOU determine and define the sum you wil pay me is what a DEALER would pay to get it.
Let's see...generally dealers pay 30% percent less. So you will give me $700.00 for this $800.00 coin? Will you sell it at the higher grade level after you have it and make 200.00 profit? Or will you re slab at the lower grade and sell it at $800.000...therefore only making $100.00 off of me this situation?

Or...I could take option number 2: You say you will re slab at the lower grade and and pay me the difference (again determined by you at deal cost). So I will get 200.00! Great! Oops, but let's see now...there is the following proviso in the guarantee...

"What the PCGS Guarantee Does Not Cover
The following is further explanation of what the PCGS Guarantee does not cover.....A blatantly obvious clerical input mistake with respect to the actual grade of the coin. For example, if you had an 1893-O Morgan dollar and the PCGS holder showed the coin as MS65 (a Gem quality coin), but the coin was so beat up and marked up that it would grade MS60 at best, this coin would not be covered by the PCGS Guarantee as this would be an obvious input error. The rule of thumb here would be a difference of more than two points on the grading scale."

"blatantly obvious" - the definition of this terminology is as subjective as the grade and also subject to PCGS's opinions.

Oh...so in other words I just forget the whole thing or I end up with you paying me 700.00 for a coin that I legitimately could sell for 800.00. Well...you will give me back the fees I spent to have you slab it in the first place. So I break even and so do you...some guarantee!


Admittedly PCGS does have a good guarantee on counterfeits attributed as being real. But as can be seen on this site, few counterfeits are not detectable by anyone willing to find out for themselves and by those who know coins.

Businesses need to make aa profit to stay in business. I still maintain if a car mechanic produced similar "quality" work with the same provisos in their guarantees that the mechanic would soon be out of business.

Dr. Cureall would guarantee, also, that his remedy would make you feel better. This was true. Considering opium and alcohol were major ingredients in a lot of these "cures." The guarantee was still not on the level for what the cure was supposed to do...cure.
- When I value " being right" more than what IS right, I am then right...a fool.
- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
- Real men play Fizzbin.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2269 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2020  03:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm always defending ICCS but as SPP says, I do think ICCS grades incorrectly with regards to copper cents, specifically their 'looseness' with the term 'RED' and their ceiling of ms63 or ms64 with 'brown' and 'red-brown'.
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