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Can Anything Help In Identifying This Gold Coin?

 
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New Member

United Kingdom
11 Posts
 Posted 02/28/2020  07:05 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add ericccshiu to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi like-minded folks,
Any idea what this gold coin (1.23g) is? No bust, just some simple designs and letters. My guess is it is a tremissis but I have never seen a tremissis having these designs and letters or one similar to this one. I don't think it is Anglo Saxon gold coin or Celtic gold coin.
Thanks for your possible help in advance.
Eric

Valued Member
Sweden
217 Posts
 Posted 02/28/2020  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The second picture has a monogram for Karolus (Charles), similar to those used on Carolingian coins (and only there as far as I am aware). The rest of the design is however not Carolingian.

The coin looks perfectly flat and the design completely clean and regular. A medieval coin would not look like that, not even when new.

So, a Carolingian monogram on a non-Carolingian coin + looks too perfect, makes me think modern fantasy piece.
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United States
15362 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2020  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ericccshiu, I see that this piece is gold-colored, but how sure are you that it actually is made from gold?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2020  06:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ericccshiu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi thank for for the comments from the two members.
This is a coin made of gold (not gold-coloured).
But whether this is a fantasy coin, I'm not so sure.
I would bet this is not a fantasy coin. Who would make a fantasy coin that is not based on the designs of real coins? For making money? (no one will buy it). For fun (why use gold to make a clearly non-real coin for fun?)
In last two days, someone told me this could be a per-Meroginivian (forgive my spelling, you know what I refer to) coin?
I hadn't heard of this term (pre-Meroginivian coin).
Any members heard this term?
Thanks for any comment received.
Eric
Valued Member
Sweden
217 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2020  07:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Merovingian refers to the period in French history that lasted ca 450-751. The Merovingian period saw gold tremissis, which could have about the same size as your coin, but they didn't look quite like this and certainly did not have the Karolus monogram (which belongs to the Carolingian period, which follows on the Merovingian period).

Before the Merovingian period (which by definition would be pre-Merovingian), Gaul was under Rome and minted Roman coins. This is not a Roman coin.

Before the Roman period (which starts around 51 BC with the Roman conquest of Gaul, and which could also be called pre-Merovingian), we have the Gallic or Celtic period. There were gold coins during that period but they looked nothing like this.

So, I'm sorry, but I don't see your coin fitting as pre-Merovingian either.
New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2020  11:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ericccshiu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for teaching me a brief lesson on Meroginian period and before this period.
I totally agree that it can't be a pre-Meroginian coin.
But I still believe it is a genuine coin (not fantasy coin because I can't see why a person would be motivated to use gold to make a fantasy coin when no one would buy it).
If this is, as I feel, a genuine coin, what can it be?
A big mystery to me.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
638 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2020  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Anaximander to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quote: "I would bet this is not a fantasy coin. Who would make a fantasy coin that is not based on the designs of real coins? For making money? (no one will buy it)."

You bought it ( or bought into it ). This is a non sequitur.

My knowledge of early French coins is almost zero, but looking at your piece and comparing it to my mediaeval British coins causes me concern as to whether it is genuine. It is so good it looks like it was made last month, which makes me suspect it was. I note erafjel's comments based on knowledge of the era. If I had to put money on it, I would guess you have a piece of modern bling.
Edited by Anaximander
03/02/2020 11:14 am
New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2020  11:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ericccshiu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No I didn't buy it.
My friend in Germany asked me what it is. I then put in into this forum to ask for answers/comments.
I still believe it is a genuine coin.
Would anyone buy a fantasy gold coin?
Would anyone spend time and effort and money on producing a fantasy gold coin?
To commit a murder, a sane individual must have a motive to want to kill somebody.
I can't imagine any reasonable motive to produce a gold fantasy coin.
My friend said he cleaned it from dirt. He is not intent on selling it to me or trying to trick me.
This is a genuine coin I still believe.
Unless someone can convince me that it isn't.
Valued Member
Sweden
217 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2020  12:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ericccshiu, how do you know that it is made of gold?

I can think of a few reasons why someone would make a fantasy piece like this:

The obvious one is to make a fake piece and try to sell it as genuine. Then this one is not the best of fakes, since it does not match any known genuine coin (as far as we have seen yet, and I think it will remain that way). But still, such fakes exist and could be presented as "unknown varieties".

Perhaps more likely is that this is a museum or exhibition souvenir, not intended to be taken for genuine but as a memento of an exhibition of Carolingian coins maybe.

It could also have been made by some metal artist or jewellery apprentice, simply a practice piece to show one's skills.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
638 Posts
 Posted 03/02/2020  2:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Anaximander to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are other valid reasons why such a piece could have been made. it could be a film prop. Or somebody could have designed it for a religious/spiritual reason, or a test piece, or...

Re the murder comparison, I spent my working life investigating/catching people with criminal intent, including murder. One thing I learned was that people have widely varying value judgements/systems. Even people who society would call insane or abnormal have a logic behind their activities. That logic may only be clear ( or acceptable ) to that individual, but if you get into their mind you can see why they did what they did. Now I spend my sunset years enjoying coins, who behave in a far more reasonable manner and don't try to kill or sue me.
New Member
United Kingdom
11 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2020  06:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ericccshiu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi erafjel from Sweden and Anaximender from UK,
Thank you for your continuous comments.
Firstly the coin is definitely made by gold for sure (we can easily check the materials used for making a coin with the right gadget). Secondly it was made in ancient time (whether it was made in or around Meroviginian time I don't know, but definitely not modern made). Please don't question me on this. I don't have to tell lies in this forum. What do I want to get by lying to you?
Then, talking about all the possibilities both of you said re why making this coin, they are, I summarise here, purposely made as unknown variety and sell it (who will pay quite some money to buy something so much in an unknown territory, I won't, will you?), meseum or exhibition souvivir (this is not impossible but very unlikely, using gold material to make a souvivir?), artist or jewellery appretice to show skills (again this is not impossible but very unlikely, not following an established coin pattern to show skills? Showing skills to whom?), film prop (using gold as film prop? which film?), religious or spiritual purpose (oh my God!), test piece (using gold as a test piece? test what?).
Sorry but none of the above possibilities is convincing at all.
Maybe some of them convinces you or other people, but not me - sorry!
I hope you don't get offended by me challenging each of the possbilities you mentioned. I am not trying to disagree for the purpose of disagreeing. I just want to voice my very honest feeling about the possibilities you mentioned. Nothing personal.
Anyway I still thank both of you for spending time to read this thread of messages and post your comments. I really appreciate it.
I want to end this topic and won't respond to any future messages related to this topic. So shall we stop our discussion around this topic here?
Thank you both again and have a good day!
Eric
Valued Member
United States
239 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2020  10:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Badger Mint to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since you said that you can check the metallic content, have you? what is the alloy? Trace elements can determine where the gold came from as some alloys were used only in certain areas. How have you determined that it is not modern made? what metrics did you use? No one is accusing you of lying, we would like to know how you came to your conclusions. Fantasy coins are often made of gold and sell readily to interested collectors. check out products made by Gallery Mint, Moonlight Mint, Grunal Moneta, and medieval gold fantasy pieces made by members of the SCA. If it is gold, probably not a museum piece. a test piece by a jeweler or amateur coin maker, why not? I cut my own dies and strike fantasy tokens and I have struck pieces in more than one metal, including gold when a collector wanted one. I'm glad you won't continue with this topic because based on your comments, you have very little desire to learn anything factual and seem to assume that everyone else's motivations are the same as yours. Peace, out.
New Member
Canada
44 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2020  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add arok to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found the following reference for examination of those who are still intrigued by the posed piece:

https://www.lotsearch.de/lot/world-...le&order=ASC



Moderator
Learn More...
United States
15362 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2020  2:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice work chasing down the design @arok. The OP's coin is about one quarter the weight of this gold denier which might be ok for a smaller denomination, but the mirror-like surfaces are still a concern to me. I'll try moving this thread over to the ancients and medievals sub-forum to see if there is any additional traction there.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

Valued Member
Sweden
217 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2020  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Frisian Pseudo Carolingian - that was new to me. Very interesting that there is actually an original coin that looks like this. Very good work @arok!
Pillar of the Community
United States
898 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2020  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kushanshah to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The first thing I notice is the complete difference in fabric, as already noted. Ebay is flooded with white-metal early medieval fakes of fabric similar to the op coin. There should be no surprise when one turns up in gold. The linear designs require little skill to reproduce. Caveat emptor.
Edited by Kushanshah
03/06/2020 5:18 pm
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