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ICCS Vs NGC Grading Results

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Pillar of the Community

Canada
1450 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2020  12:13 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TheCoinHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I occasionally do cross grading from ICCS to NGC. There is always a lot of heated discussion on this topic. The train goes both ways. I'll post pics when I get the shipment back from NGC but all of these would have been visible on Ebay in ICCS holders.

Coin NGC ICCS

1901 5 Cents AU-58 AU-50
1871 10 Cents XF Details EF-40
1915 10 Cents AU Details VF-30
1940 50 Cents MS-62 MS-64 Cameo
1927 25 cents AU Details AU-50
Pillar of the Community
United States
898 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2020  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And people wonder why most of those "details" Cook coins sold to Canadian dealers.
Pillar of the Community
United States
4660 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2020  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Question: Did you send them to NGC still in their ICCS holders?
Opinion: If so, that could influence the NGC grading.

From limited experience I see Canadian grading standards tougher than US grading standards.
If that's correct you coins have a reasonable chance of coming back with higher grades.

As for Details grades, I don't have any experiences.
But refer to my opening question.
Describe it as if there were no picture.
Picture it as if there were no description.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
882 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2020  5:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add johnnysprawl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
VF-30 to AU details?

Looking forward to seeing the photos for that one!
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2840 Posts
 Posted 04/01/2020  6:32 pm  Show Profile   Check silverwolf's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add silverwolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NGC , over grades Canadian coins, especially lower grades. Are the cross overs to sell, or to keep?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1450 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  08:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheCoinHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interestingly enough no one comments on the 1940. Although I agree that there are numerous examples of grade differences in the VF-AU range between ICCS and NGC/PCGS, especially KGV. However in this batch there is only one coin where that is the case. There are thousands of high grade MS coins in ICCS holders that are either over graded or wouldn't make a clean grade by either of the US TPG. The 1940 is a good example of that along with many other MS coins that I've sent in in the past where almost ALL of the coins came back with either a lower grade or a details designation.

The coins are sent to NGC raw.

The details grades will likely wind up back in ICCS holders

Pillar of the Community
Canada
3308 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  10:00 am  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think one thing that we all seem to miss is the grading philosophy of the companies are all
Somewhat different .
ICCS is a technical grader , with little regards for the subtleties of eye appeal , strike , etc.
In the last year or so anything with great eye appeal I have sent to NGC or ANACS .
What I am seeing is the standards of the US companies have tightened considerably !
We are doing way more World and US coins these days because the market for Canadian
is absolutely awful to be frank . For this reason We are using the US services a lot more than
before . Must say that I am more satisfied with the opinions of Both ANACS and NGC than
in the past , where both couldn't grade Canadian or World to save their souls.
The last Canadian batch I had graded by ICCS ( June 2019 ) was quite frankly all over the
road map !
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Canada
7948 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  11:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Awaiting the pics.


TCH, you are a dealer, and not a fool, you are surviving in this poor market.
This is far from an exercise in random comparison of ICCS vs. NGC
You chose these five coins from your inventory for submission to NGC looking for an increase in retail value.



"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1450 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheCoinHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
DBM,

You're making some incorrect assumptions so let me educate you.

1. As you know from many of my previous posts here, I've been cross grading coins to NGC (and back) and have posted results here many times.
2. No secret about me being critical of ICCS's grading standards over the recent years. Inconsistent, lousy on high grade copper and high MS silver.
2. Not sure how you've determined that this batch would be profitable to any dealer. Given the largely even grades and NGC details, one can safely assume a loss (in this case).
3. Aside from some personal interest in grading differences, the US market offers a far bigger audience that wants US TPG graded coins which leads to more sales. The Canadian coin market is largely dismal.
4. I often send foreign coins to NGC and often include a few ICCS items.
5. I guess you'd prefer Canadian dealers to buy NGC/PCGS "details" coins and stuff them into ICCS holders without any designation (that never happens, lol).
6. I don't pick and chose which coins I post and don't hide the results. I thought I was being pretty transparent in my post.
7. Most Canadian coin dealers make their money from scrap and bullion sales. I am no different. Collectibles represent only about 20% of my revenue

Hope that clarifies a few things.
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Canada
7948 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  2:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TCH
Are you or are you not an NGC authorized dealer?

That's why I question your objectivity here.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1450 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheCoinHunter to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
DBM,

Of course I am and that's no secret. Not sure why that has anything to do with it. Other than reduced grading rates, TPG dealerships offer no other benefits. I sell coins from all TPGs including ICCS. I also don't send all of my Canadian coins to NGC. High grade copper for example would likely be sent to PCGS. I also give ICCS thousands of dollars of grading business every year because the Canadian market wants it. None of that changes the problems as far as quality of grading with any of the outfits. They all face varying issues. The problem is that the Canadian market prays at the ICCS alter like it's the best thing since sliced bread. That might have been the case 10 years, it is not the case today. If no one speaks up, the problem will not improve. Secondly, clearly there are discrepancies between ICCS and the US TPGs, however in many cases they are exaggerated. Like I've mentioned many times, most silver ICCS coins in high MS grades are likely to come back demoted from an American TPG and PCGS can easily be considered the king of Canadian copper grading.
Valued Member
Canada
237 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisCat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Glad to see you posting again Coin Hunter. As always, well said.
Valued Member
Canada
430 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Check TerryT's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add TerryT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
2 fees to the opinion-givers, plus tax, plus mailing costs ....... so can we assume the customer will now have $20 or more opinion-cost added into the dealers price ? Vive le raw (coin, that is).


Edited by TerryT
04/02/2020 7:03 pm
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Canada
9078 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2020  7:06 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And people wonder why most of those "details" Cook coins sold to Canadian dealers.


bosox, that exact thing crossed my mind when I saw the results.
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

My eBay store
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United States
1571 Posts
 Posted 04/03/2020  1:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And people wonder why most of those "details" Cook coins sold to Canadian dealers.
Could you and SPP please clarify your comments? Are you saying they crossed them to ICCS because ICCS is less likely to give them "details" designations? I ask because I purchased one of these coins, and in-hand I've convinced myself that PCGS mistook die polish for "hairlines", and that they may have had a certain amount of "Cook bias" when grading. This is a George VI specimen half. I'm considering sending it to another TPG.
Valued Member
Canada
113 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2020  08:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add upc239 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen too many ICCS errors lately and I'm also considering moving to NGS or PCGS.


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