I'll throw my hat into this.
I like to collect high grade type rarities, and when I can get my hands on one, either top, or near top pop coins. I do like TPGs because they use an agreed upon scale of grading and therefore (theoretically) I can buy an MS-67 knowing it's a 67. Now that said, all TPGs aren't equal, and not all coins are equal either, even within the same grade. A low end MS-67 morgan and high end MS-67 morgan are completely different animals.
Now. Why do I bring this up? Because CAC recognizes the difference. I have confidence in my ability to grade, therefor I will always buy the coin, not the holder, but having a CAC sticker to me insures that I'm not crazy, and neither were the graders. It differentiates between the high end and low end of a grade, which is important to me as I try to collect premium examples. A lot of people think that it's a gimmick, and they're entitled to that opinion. Some people said that CAC is for investors and such, and they're not wrong in a sense. All coin collectors should see their collections as a hobby, but also a store of value. I collect coins because I love to, not because I think I can always flip them for a buck, but it is a good way to store money.
I think of it like this. Your coin is your home, you've spent money on it, and (chances are) you like it and want to keep them around, so to me a
TPG is home insurance. Now, home insurance is good and all, but each
TPG I think of as a different policy. ICG is your budget, shady insurance company while PCGS and NGC are name brand agencies. Then I think of CAC as a bonus policy. Maybe it's flood insurance, or pest or tornado insurance, whatever it may be. All it does is gives you a bit more protection, though at a cost. I feel this analogy works well. Regardless of if you agree with it, it makes sense.
Now I'm going to try my best to offer my rebuttal to a few points in this thread so far (no hard feelings guys
)
TBOP said
Quote:But I have offend wonder what slab buyers see in a cac sticker . First of all who the heck do they think they are ? Their not the all mighty supreme being of coin grading .They are just a person like anybody else whose giving their opinion on what a
TPG gives to a coin . This is what you guys are willing to pay much more because of Joe shmoe putting a green bean on the slab and saying YES! this is a high end MS-67 not a normal MS-67 .
To the first sentence I offer my above rant, that's what I see at least. As to who we (I) think they are, I see them as significantly stricter in terms of grading. From my experience with submitting to CAC, and working as a Coin Dealer I can tell you CAC grades quite harshly. I generally notice that CAC seems to grade around half a point to a full point lower than most people (or TPGs) would. So generally that means that a CAC sticker represents (again from my experience) around the top 15%-20% of a grade, which means on average only 1 in 5 or less coins would CAC. Because of that I am willing to pay more for the coin because I know it's good quality. Trust me, I've looked long and hard some some type coins, and can tell you not all coins are equal in the same grade. The difference between a high end and low end coin in the same grade can be astonishing, even if the low end coin is graded accurately. As I choose to seek premium coins, I don't want to spend $1,000 on a low end MS-64, but am willing to pay $1,100 for one that I know is very choice for the grade, ie the most bang for my buck, even if I have to pay a slight premium.
MattVincent said
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As I understand it PCGS and NCG were originally created to grade coins so that an investor (NOT a collector!) could buy coins much in the same way as buying a share of Microsoft.
I disagree, it was to create a system in which grading was standardized and that all collectors could have confidence in their purchases knowing that the coin is (usually) accurately graded and knowing that it's genuine. A metaphorical safety blanket.
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Collectors who wanted an independent third party to offer
an opinion replaced the investor. AND THEY WANT TO SEE THE COIN!
Not quite sure what you're trying to convey here, the wording is a bit confusing.
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Some collectors who want the best of THE BEST gave rise
to CAC - which I call a VANITY grading service.
Given unlimited disposable income and a strong competitive disposition explain the bidding wars among collectors.
IMO all collectors should strive for the best of the best, regardless of their budget. You can only afford an F-12 of that date and mint? Don't buy one that's a crappy F-12, get the one that's closer to an F-15, ie the best of that grade. I'm not quite sure why the concept of bang for the buck (even at a slight premium) is so hotly contested, I'd think it'd be common sense. Especially when it comes to higher dollar coins.
Ballyhoo said
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The way I interpret the CAC grading is that they break down each grade further without the complications a numerical value would create.
Yep.
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However, using the example stated such a huge difference becomes mind boggling. Looking at the population report, 70 graded 67 with 11 at plus. So the question becomes, aren't plus and CAC the same thing?
Sort of. Think of it like this. In our make believe scenario for the sake of an example let's say there is a walking lib half that has 30 examples known in MS-67 with none known finer. Let's say in this scenario all of them are submitted to CAC. If only 1 or 2 CAC it would become clear which coin(s) are truly the top pop example, and thus as it would be a premium example the market value would naturally increase. I suspect in your given example with the 1947-D walker that few MS-67 examples exist with CAC and the market has decided to price them as a MS-67+ (which would match the price at $2800).
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Why is it that people are so fascinated with these green beans that they are willing to pay tremendous premiums above and beyond? Is the eye appeal based on someone else's opinion really worth that kind of price difference?
See my above statements.
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So the question becomes, aren't plus and CAC the same thing? If so, then why the additional opinion by yet another grading company?
Yes and no. A plus grade according to PCGS and NGC represents the top 25% of a grade and a CAC (statistically) represents the top 15-20%. Now when talking about significant numbers and such the 5-10% is marginally different.
BUT this is where the catch comes. It is
extremely rare for TPGs to assign a plus grade. After reviewing sample data from the thousands of graded morgans I've handled I can say that more often then not if a
TPG sees a coin that would fall into that upper 25% catagory, they tend to typically just bump it a grade rather then give it a plus. The problem with this is that the bumped coin is poor quality for the grade. Usually when I see a plus coin I see it as a coin that isn't good enough for the next grade up, but better then most for the grade. The reason another service is needed is because of how often TPGs neglect to add the plus and simply round up or down instead of being more accurate.
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To me it now becomes nothing more than a marketing tool to boost corporate sales without any thought of the consumer.
Corporations as in dealers, or TPGs, or CAC? I stand with everyone in the buy the coin that the slab camp.
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And we wonder why fewer and fewer new collectors participate or stay long in the hobby.
As someone who's turning 18 in a few days I have a perfect answer for this. Most kids my age aren't interested. They'd rather go to the beach, have the newest iPhone or shoes then a coin. Most kids want an experience and or status rather then something material. "But Cameron", you may say, didn't you just say they want clothes, shoes, or phones? Isn't that material? Yes. But more importantly it's a status item. In the social media age status and appearance goes before everything. I can say the fact that I very openly go against that hasn't made me many friends, but I don't particularly care. That's the reason fewer new people and younger people are getting into it.
That said, I've gotten almost 10 people my age started as collectors who I can talk with and such with great frequency. From my experience those who get into collecting my age seem to love the history to the coins and how they came to be, and appreciate them for their beauty and as a part of history.
Anyway. I hope this conveyed my opinions and thoughts appropriately, and thanks for reading this essay
Posted 05/09/2020 2:07 pm
