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"Red" Designation For Copper Cents

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 11 / Views: 916Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1691 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  12:46 am Show Profile   Check Petersun's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add Petersun to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have been interested in large Canadian copper cents for quite a while now, although I only recently started looking into slabbed large cents of higher grades. In the process of trying to find ones with good eye appeal, I ran into a couple of questions.

1. The "red," "red/brown," "trace red" designations. After looking at a couple of ICCS coins and comparing them to those on the PCGS population report, I got the feeling that PCGS tends to be much more conservative in naming a coin "red." Are these designations based on quantifiable parameters, like the percentage of original lustre?

2. Changes to eye appeal after prolonged storage inside holders. I know that TPG companies advertise how they use inert materials in their coin holders, but in my understanding, this by no means that there won't be trapped gases to prevent further oxidation. Is it common for coins graded with the "red" designation to graduation turn brown over time? (My guess is that, if the holders are completely airtight, the chemical reactions might just reach equilibrium at some point, but I am only speculating because I don't have any real-life experience in this area).

Combining the two questions above, I wasn't sure whether ICCS just had a more lenient standard for "red" designations, or if their holders were just less well-built for whatever reason.

A couple of years ago, when the Landon collection came out, I followed a thread on this forum quite closely. I remember that many Victorian and Edwardian large cents were advertised to have at least 90% of original lustre. I would be very interested to know whether these coins, over the course of the past eight or so years, have evolved in their eye appeal.

== Edit: As Silver101 pointed out,3I mixed up the terms lustre and toning. In my post above I meant "toning." ==
Edited by Petersun
07/05/2020 10:29 am
Bedrock of the Community
United States
36425 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  04:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
Valued Member
Canada
428 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  07:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey @John1 - thanks for those links. I had read the PCGS but not NGS.

But I'm still confused. My impression was that lustre is more about the reflective quality of the surface than the colour of the metal. My own collection is all silver at the moments so maybe the rules are different? As an example of what I mean, if you look at the pennies listed on the NGS site under Red, Red/Brown and Brown, while I agree that a the brown coin is brown (progress?!) I would argue that it has a greta deal more lustre than 15%.

Or maybe I confusing lustre and frost?
Bedrock of the Community
United States
36425 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  08:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Luster has to do with the strike of the coin and color is from toning. Luster is also known as "cartwheel effect" I think not sure.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1691 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  10:36 am  Show Profile   Check Petersun's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Petersun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for pointing out the inaccurate terminology. Yes, I should have said toning as opposed to lustre. Totally different concepts.
The link from John1 was quite helpful, especially the explanation of why the Wheat penny with 85% red received the grade of MS65RB.
My impression, again, is that ICCS would have just given "red" to that coin. Again, I am not sure whether it is because of different standards, or if it is due to changes to the coin after being placed in their holders.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1615 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  11:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Smallcentguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ICCS is much, much, much more lenient. When you are dealing with pre-Elizabeth and especially pre George VI coins, PCGS will probably body bag something like 1/4 of ICCS red coins as either "cleaned" or "questionable colour". Probably another 1/4 to 1/2 will end up as Red-Brown. So I would say maybe 1/4 to 1/3 of ICCS Red George V small cents will cross into PCGS Red. And then you have to allow for the ICCS coins that don't cross numerically.
Edited by Smallcentguy
07/05/2020 11:28 am
Pillar of the Community
United States
982 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Totally agree with Smallcentguy.
Valued Member
Canada
428 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2020  3:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting - I still haven't sent anything to PCGS but I've got a few raw coins that are in the line up as well as one ICCS and one NGC that I think might be graded low. It's an experiment - I'll post the results here....
Valued Member
Canada
92 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  11:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jerry to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ICCS, "Red" is 70%, RB is 67%
PCGS "Red" is 90%

Different grading structures.

Also, As copper is an "active" metal respective of oxygen...The designations ,say, PCGS are only guaranteed for a few years. There are many examples of coins in either ICCS, NGC, or PCGS holders that the copper coin has toned to RB even though the designation is "Red"....copper is like that.
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Canada
9369 Posts
 Posted 10/21/2020  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No holder is airtight, and none of the plastic flips or slabs are impermeable to water vapour. the best thing you can do is mitigate against humidity.

Red coins I have had for 20 years, have stay red, but I run a dehumidifier in my "coin cave 24/7. I also frequently replace the silica desiccant packs in my safety deposit boxes quite regularly.
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Valued Member
Canada
428 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2020  09:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silica gel - I need to do that... How often do you replace it?
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2311 Posts
 Posted 10/22/2020  09:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PCGS is much stricter than ICCS when grading 'RED' copper.
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