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1766 Counterfeit Portrait 8 Reales MO Ih

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 12 / Views: 588Next Topic  
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United States
2 Posts
 Posted 08/27/2020  9:34 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all,

I'm very excited about my first post on this forum. To make a long story short, I received an 1807 8 reales as a present many years ago and always thought it looked a little suspicious. I finally bought a copy of Swamperbob's book in April and months of lurking, scrutinizing hundreds of Ebay listings, and telling my friends and family far more than they ever wanted to know about 8 reales, here I am!

I wanted to post about this 1766 fantasy date/assayer coin I recently purchased which I believe is a Class I CCC. Its weight is 26.93 g, and it is slightly over 40 mm in diameter and seems to be a little thicker than a normal 8 reales. My rough specific gravity test yielded a result of 8.94. Additionally, the dies seem hand-engraved and have somewhat crude lettering, and there are three overlaps on the edge. I'm still learning from all your posts, but I think it's safe to say this coin is pretty much counterfeit in every way. Just wanted to ask and see if anyone had any input on potential origins or other info about the coin's manufacture? Thought it was pretty interesting, and I haven't seen any similar ones before in my very short experience. Looking forward to hearing any thoughts you all may have! Thank you!





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United States
35940 Posts
 Posted 08/28/2020  04:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
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 Posted 08/28/2020  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Check ksammut's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add ksammut to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting coin. I guess the date gives it away immediately as to whether or not it's fake. Is it a contemporary counterfeit or modern?
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United States
1521 Posts
 Posted 09/04/2020  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent pick for what you paid (came across this after the fact a few days before this thread; part of a 3-coin lot buried in the auction connected to the recent imaginary ANA show... sometimes bargains CAN be had in major auctions).

Definitely looks to be contemporary... has age, very well-executed overall BUT slightly "off" enough to belie its nature (aside from the obvious errors). Reminiscent of the also well-done "1870" Charles IIII type that pops up occasionally... which I believe may date from decently well into the 1800s.

Don't have my files or Bob's book/pic files handy. Swamper, comments?
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United States
5017 Posts
 Posted 09/08/2020  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
threefifty

That is a wonderful example of a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit (1CCC). The type is similar to many of the Birmingham forgeries of the early 1800's. The dates were not important since the market was China.

All too often people believe CCC types have to be extremely crude. That is a fallacy. Birmingham produced many highly skilled counterfeits using Sheffield Silver plate.

Just this week I bought an example of the 1804 Bank of England Dollar that was made by William Booth "the forger". He was hung in 1812 on charges of counterfeiting. One of the 5 charges was for making the 1804 BofE Dollar of the type below.



My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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United States
2 Posts
 Posted 09/20/2020  9:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Realeswatcher - thank you for the input on the auction, glad to hear you think the price was relatively low. I thought so too, but since I'm so new to this it still very hard for me to judge what I should be paying for counterfeits. Trying to watch and learn from this forum and Ebay sold prices!

Swamperbob - thank you for the info regarding that Bank of England dollar and William Booth, that's fascinating. I'll keep in mind your excellent point that CCC types aren't necessarily crude. I think I've been biasing myself towards looking for the cruder types (probably since they're easier to pick out visually given limited info)...but it would be nice to be able to acquire a really sophisticated CCC such as the one on the cover of your book.

Thanks to all for the welcome - I appreciate it!
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Austria
551 Posts
 Posted 09/21/2020  02:07 am  Show Profile   Check coinworldtv's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add coinworldtv to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, both coins look interesting indeed.

I wish somebody would offer a certification service for old counterfeits with a history such as the William Booth piece.

I just have listed a few evasion halfpennies on eBay which are of similar character.

One of them is a later manipulated (tooled) evasion piece which says "GOD SAVE US ALL" something we might need in our current pandemic situation.



The evasion pieces are well documented and have many varieties, but there is no real certification service for those yet.
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 Posted 09/21/2020  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
threefifty The coin on the cover of my book cost me a bit more than I wanted when I bought it because it came from a prestigious auction house and it was authenticated by several "experts".

I recognized it as a counterfeit right away and I though I would get no pushback using it as the cover coin. I felt it was actually a spectacular example of the forgers art. However, when I submitted my book to be published the ANS (which was suggested by both of my co-authors) rejected it. The ANS reviewer who rejected my book, used that cover coin as one "Proof" that my opinions were worthless. That particular expert who shall remain nameless lectured me at length on how that coin was definitely genuine and well within a normal range of variation for Mexican 8 Reales. He felt ANS would become a laughing stock should they choose to publish a book with such easy to spot errors.

Of course the reviewer was dead wrong. The coin has exposed copper which was tested in a laboratory using XRF that discriminates to 10 ppm. The specific gravity is very low near 9.0 and I continue to maintain it is beyond all doubt a contemporary counterfeit and one of only handful of examples I have seen so far using the silver ribbon edge devised by M. Boulton in about 1790. This is an early ribbon application since the ribbon itself was far too wide for the edge. Later applications narrowed the width of the silver ribbon.


My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 09/22/2020  02:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well maybe you should name that ANS reviewer. Who knows how many other bad opinions this person has or will continue to espouse.
Edited by jgenn
09/22/2020 02:48 am
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 Posted 09/22/2020  11:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I really prefer not to throw people under the bus. The guy had no expertise in Mexican coins (as I understand it he specializes in ancient coins). His rejection caused me to do the book on my own and expand on it so that I could add comments on the silver counterfeits I learned about from my uncle.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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United States
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 Posted 09/23/2020  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
threefifty - you definitely did well. That piece, well-advertised, would bring $400-500 (as I'm sure you've figured). ANY CC pieces have gone nutty the last year or two on eBay... perhaps largely due to one particular "chip", I think... but overall, the market has INDEED strengthened for these. This is in no small part due to Bob's posting on here over the past 10 years - a simple Googling for contemporary counterfeit 8 reales will confirm that.

Bob, your cover coin was indeed a perfect example... and frankly, the ANS guy was (as ANYONE who has at least decent familiarity with the series would be) totally clueless. As you said, the self-publishing provided more freedom, so there's that.

As a side note... as jgenn and twokopeiki would know, there's an ANS guy who posts on the PCGS forums now (I believe the name is Jesse Kraft) who is VERY much a true student of numismatics. You wouldn't have had that problem with him.

Anywho, though... just to be the pain in the gugatts the I am, I think you're misremembering your cover coin's provenance a bit. 'Twas an eBay piece...

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 Posted 09/23/2020  8:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher You are undoubtedly correct - since my heart problem I have noticed that many of my memories are off a bit. I get one thing confused with another far more often than ever before. I know I am very fortunate to still be alive so I am doing the best I can.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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