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1866 Two Cent Attributed Varieties For Reverse

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 342Next Topic  
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 Posted 10/31/2020  5:12 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add shantiom to your friends list Get a Link to this Message


Recently, I purchased some Classic Dansco and Whitman books with incomplete sets filled.In one, there are five 2 Cents and five Nickel 3 Cents. I took out carefully what I though was the least brown and took the following photos. Being unfamiliar with this series, but understanding the minting process, there appears to be a DDR in the C of CENTS, a repunched 2 in the "2 Cents", and some wierd action on the date 1866.

On the obverse, is that a die crack? That's more a curiosity question. If closeups are needed please let me know. For US Classical Coin Varieties, what is a reference book that has high quality photos for these coins..







Edited by shantiom
10/31/2020 5:36 pm
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 Posted 10/31/2020  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add smat45 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not much of a 2 cent guy...but just looking/reading what NGC says on their variety plus page (sometimes they have a pic of the variety)about the 66 DDR FS 801...and then looking at a photo of one on PCGS's page makes me believe you have it based on your pics...?
Check it out for yourself and see what you think?
Nice pick up on the albums!
smat
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 Posted 11/01/2020  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't think it's the DDR the main pick up area on the DDR is the wheat sheaves and the leaves on the left side. The numeral 2 is also strongly doubled. I made up a pasted pair of photos from a MS65 example to show of the pick up points.

I think the area on the obverse of your coin is damage in the shield, could be a lamination, but I need to see it much enlarged from what there is posted. Can't definitively say that is a die crack either with out a sharper and larger photo.







Doubling is always to the North or upwards on the numeral 2. Hope these help.

As to reference books with good photos? Tough call, Not many books on the series at all. I have all of them. Kevin Flynn first book "Getting your Two Cents worth" good, cheap, out of date, has this example.
His next book, the most complete reference book on the series "The Authoritative Reference on Two Cent Coins" very well done, lots of information, don't care for the layout, photos could be better on some of the varieties, still the best reference book out.

"Longacre's Two Cent Piece Die Varieties & Errors" by Frank Leone, out of print, hard to find, I have a few left but they aren't cheap ($75.00 or more). Outdated numbering system and photo quality isn't the best.

Frank's 2nd book "Longacre's Two-Cent Piece 1864 Attribution Guide" a phenomenal research book, only has 1864 dated coins, lists over 100 different die marriages and most known varieties of that year. Photos are average, includes excellent line drawings to help ID die cracks, cuds, die issues, etc. is very helpful. Out of print and expensive when found ($100+ usually).

Myron Kliman's " Two Cent Piece and Varieties" no photos or drawings, only text descriptions, very outdated, lists coins no longer considered collectible like overdates (all disproven).

Walter Breen's Encyclopedia - good but same issues with Kliman's book old and out dated, photos not present for many of the varieties.

Cherry Picker's Guides - all great references, not complete by any means, good photos too. Hard to find with reasonable pricing right now. New version (7th edition) still coming, maybe early next year?

RedBook, not enough data, though what is in the current books is good, no real varieties or photos of all the series.

Online, PCGS & NGC both have okay areas devoted to varieties they certify. I prefer PCGS's Coin Facts myself.

I've been working on a research project on the 1864 Small Motto coins, but it's hardly ready for printing or publishing, not sure it will ever be, maybe someday though.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
11/01/2020 9:23 pm
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 Posted 11/02/2020  09:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add just carl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I too sort of got involved with those two and Three Cent coins. I too purchased an Album for those and now sort of regret it. Way to few of them around and way to expensive. Might be reason so many Albums are sort of filled then sold.
I wouldn't bother with any possible doubles though.
just carl
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 Posted 11/02/2020  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shantiom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is why the hobby is enjoyable! I went back to the coin, went under a Loupe 16x: the shadow around the 2 is dirt accumulation that piled up around curves of the two making a dirt pile resembling the 2. The C is not doubled, there are two raised gouges on top of which the C was stamped, almost perfectly to create the illusion of the C. Outside of the C are two elevated gouges aligning perfectly with the elevated gauges up and inside the C curve. Lessons learned: old coins are accumulated with grime in the shape of devices as the dirt hugs these devices. Sometime the variety is a perfectly lined up gauge or other mark creating the illusion.

But most importantly, this was time well spent, learning from others and challenging my own assumptions.

Thank you!
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 Posted 11/02/2020  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add shantiom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for educational contributions to this question, much appreciated. I like the 2 Cents more than the 3. But I am really not understanding this series and the varieties, so @westcoin, is there no other DDR in this series besides the 1866, or is there another one or two in different years? Is there a formal resource to seek 2C attribution like Wexler for Lincoln Cents. I ask because I came across this one on an auction that I may purchase, it two has doubling but I cannot discern if it's Machine Doubling or not? Any help from any esteemed members here!
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 Posted 11/03/2020  2:36 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
shantiom, What you show in that reverse shot is a classic Longacre's Doubling. I'm not 100% positive that it's been explained perfectly or that we exactly know everything involved in it happening. I dare say we know it's Hob or Punch Shoulder Outlines generally found on mottos and lettering around the edge of US coins, While Longacre's doubling is most associated with the Indian Head cent. It is also found on the Seated Liberty denominations and other coins of that era.

There are two theories for Longacre's doubling. The first, which is most popular, is that the master die was placed into the die steel to form the master die. To add details to the die, the engraver would then shave the sides of the punch used to add design elements, leaving a lip on that punch's sides. The engraver would then conduct an extra hard hit to the punch leaving the shaved sides effects into the die. The effect would eventually wear off as the master die did age, which is why not all coins from a particular working die would have the Longacre's doubling.

This is the second scenario. After adding the design elements to the master die, the engraver would move the punch slightly and tap it again. This would produce a 'lip' on the die, and the effect would make the metal flow into the punched in design elements more readily. In theory, this would also have prolonged the die's life. (see the quote below to substantiate this theory)

Here is a really good example of it isolated in a B&W photo, note the shoulder appearance and how it's lie a shelf the letters sit on top of.



I'm also including a quote by Condor101 from another forum, but I feel his thoughts are right on the money clear and concise:


Quote:
I have always felt that Longacre deliberately added that small shoulder to the punches used to create the master dies as a visual aid so he would know when the punch had been driven deeply enough into the die. Longacre was not a die sinker, he was an engraver, in fact mostly a flat plate engraver. So he was not experience in knowing how deeply the lettering needed to punched. The shoulder also aided in die polishing/basining. When the shoulders disappeared the die would be properly basined and the lettering and devices would be at the proper desired relief above the field on the final coin. So a coin that still shows the Longacre doubling is from a die that wasn't properly finished. After Longacre died the master dies and hubs he had made continued in use so the Longacre doubling effect can be seen long after he passed. But whenever the hubs were modified after he died, even if the general design didn't change, Longacre doubling disappears. For example on the Indian Head cent Longacre Doubling is common until 1886, On the later date Hub of 1886 coins Longacre doubling is not seen. On the reverse that the last modification was the hub of 1870 which Longacre must have made in 1869 before his death. That hub was used through the end of the series and Longacre doubling can be found on the reverse through at least 1907. (Cited from: https://www.cointalk.com/threads/lo...ors.369009/)


It is positively NOT a doubling of the die or hub, nor is it machine or ejection doubling.

So bottom line it's fairly common on coins from 1856 through 1907, it's not a collectible item (though some may very well collect examples of it), it neither adds nor subtracts value to a coin. It's seen on all types of metals; copper, silver and gold US coinage.

Hope that was clear enough definition on something all coin collectors still don't agree on.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
11/03/2020 2:37 pm
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 Posted 11/03/2020  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just realized I didn't answer your initial question on Two Cent DDRs. To the best knowledge we know there are no other known doubled reverse dies in the Two Cent series beyond the single 1866 one. There are at least a half dozen of us very serious collectors of die varieties in the Two Cent series we all agree that that's the only one so far found. It would be big news if any other DDR shows up, maybe not as big of news as a new large cent variety or but still news. Also there are quite a few DDO's known in:
-----------------------------------------
2 CENT DDO known varieties

1864SM - 2 (1)
1864LM - 9 (1)
1865P5 - 7 (1)
1865F - 0
1866 - 0
1867 - 4
1868 - 1
1869 - 1
1870 - 2
1871 - 4 (1)
1872 - 1
1873op - 0
1873cl - 0

(X) Proof DDO's included in main count
-----------------------------------------

Funny how the only date with no known DDO's has the only DDR in it (besides the Proof only 1873 coins), that other 0 is for a sub-variety of the 1865 Fancy or Plain five in date, including it as the TPGs are beginning to notate the 5 designation on certified coins at no charge now.

Another strange thing is the number of major errors in the series is extremely low, while there are plenty of common lower value errors like; Clipped planchets, and laminations, Grease Filled Dies, strike through errors, there are only a very small number of known off center, struck on wrong planchet, double or triple strikes, capped dies, broad strikes, etc.

Probably under 50 total of all of those from a mintage in the range of 45,600,500 business strikes, almost 50 million coins and only 50 or so errors have turned up in 150+ years. That's an average of like 1 every million coins made. Other series in the same time frame and era have way more error coins in the marketplace. Three Cent Nickels have 1000's, as do Indian Head cents, Buffalo nickels, Liberty nickels, Seated coinage, etc. This is a definitely strange phenomenon that has never been answered, though Frank Leone did bring it the subject in an old Errorscope (publication of CONECA) nobody that I'm aware of ever had any kind of answer as to why that is.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
11/03/2020 3:53 pm
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