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1805 Piece Of 8 Questionable Authenticity

 
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 Posted 11/13/2020  12:29 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Alexprice30 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hey everyone, I'm new and I hope I'm posting this in the right place. An acquaintance of mine purchased this coin at a flea market and I am trying g to help determine if it is authentic. I may buy it from him if it is. Its not in great condition. It is non magnetic, it looks and sounds like silver. I have no experience with 8 reales but I've noticed that it appears to have some error on the shield. It looks as if some slag or some extra silver was in the die when the coin was struck. Any help determining authenticity will be greatly appreciated!

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 Posted 11/13/2020  4:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the Community!

Your post was moved to the appropriate forum for the proper attention.
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 Posted 11/14/2020  09:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


It looks like the die used for the reverse (shield) was in a state of deterioration. This would explain the die crack that runs from the top of the left column, through the crown, and over to the H in HISPAN. Maybe also the cud (that blob of metal at about 11:00).

We have experts here who will give you an opinion on authenticity when they see your coin.
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 Posted 11/14/2020  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could you provide pictures of the edge going all around the coin? Edge design is a critical part of looking at these coins.
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
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 Posted 11/28/2020  3:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Alexprice30 Based on just the two pictures I see few normal hints of fraud. You do have tapered edges on opposing sides of the planchet present when the coin was struck - which is one bad sign indicating a blank created from a silver strip that was not quite standard width.

However, that said, the edge is definitely next to examine as jfransch indicated since the colonial edge was rarely copied correctly by counterfeiters and forgers.

Next in order for a determination are precise weight. Wear of dollar coins is relatively predictable unless the edge has been clipped or the coin tested by removing a notch.

Then comes some science (high school level). The density of the coin must be 10.31. That tolerance is exact - one or two points either way and you have a suspicious coin.

Finally, because these coins were still being copied as trade silver coins until about 1930 you need to get a post graduate level scientific test with XRF. You can get a cheap XRF (using a handheld detector) by visiting a good sized junk yard. Most can be convinced to test a coin for $5 or $10 - a few are still free. A test for gold MUST yield a measurable amount of gold in the 1.0% to 0.01% range on any gun. No gold means the coin was either NOT made in Mexico in the 1800's or it was made with UK silver refined from lead ores after 1850 or with US silver processed with chlorine gas starting in the 1870s. Either way it would be a made for China restrike.

If you get a No gold test and you are genuinely curious you can get a lab test using XRF (from $50 to $500 depending on your level of curiosity) and in that case you are looking for 20th century contaminates found in industrial or recycled silver. Cadmium was introduced into sterling flatware to retard tarnish before 1910. Rare earth conductors were added to silver used in computers beginning in the 1970's. The more expensive tests ($500) are far more accurate than the hand held gun and can detect contaminants to 10 parts per million across the periodic table from Carbon to Uranium.

I once tested a Portrait 8R that I bought for $3 to prove that it was a counterfeit. The test showed 12 ppm (0.0012%) gold, three rare earth metals never found in Mexico and Cadmium. Absolute proof my coin was worth melt (it contained 90% silver and was made after 1970) and it only cost me the bargain price of $250. Why did I do the test - simply to prove the test worked.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 11/28/2020  4:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You do have tapered edges on opposing sides of the planchet present when the coin was struck - which is one bad sign indicating a blank created from a silver strip that was not quite standard width.


Bob, define "bad sign"...
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 Posted 11/28/2020  7:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher What I am referring to is the weakness seen along the opposite sides of this coin. It comes from being struck on a planchet that was cut from a rolled out fillet ingot that was too narrow. It is something I saw in the coins made in New Bedford after 1880 for the China trade. Some genuine coins have the same defect but not as often as the silver copies do and it is always confined to one side.

The fillet ingots were the small thin ingots of silver poured so that they could be rolled out into a strip of material just over the diameter of one planchet and several feet long. After rolling and laminating the silver ribbon the thickness of a planchet was punched to produce a planchet. I discovered in my research that it was John Riddell who design the fillet casting machine used at the US mints for about half a century.

The picture below illustrates the flattening of the fillet into a silver strip the proper thicknes.


This is a cross section of a fillet ingot that may have started out being too thin.



Below is the strip showing blanks punched from the strip.


Finally a planchet with tapered sides opposite one another. The shaded area is thinner than the rest of the planchet and does not strike up well. This translates to areas of weakness which are always on opposite sides. The common mint error involves weakness along one side due to punching too close to the edge of the strip. The feature common to the "Boston" counterfeit group is a silver strip so narrow that weak areas occur on both sides of the planchet.



I hope that explains what I mean.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Edited by swamperbob
11/28/2020 7:54 pm
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 Posted 11/29/2020  12:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
realeswatcher What I am referring to is the weakness seen along the opposite sides of this coin. It comes from being struck on a planchet that was cut from a rolled out fillet ingot that was too narrow. It is something I saw in the coins made in New Bedford after 1880 for the China trade. Some genuine coins have the same defect but not as often as the silver copies do and it is always confined to one side.

Bob, I'm aware of what the effect is... in all honesty, I wanted to hear the extent of your observations on it.

This effect can be observed PLENTY on pieces from other Colonial mints... and also, as you should know since the counterfeits thereof are your wheelhouse, on genuine Cap & Rays of several different branch mints.

This was a feature that interested me early on in seeing your emphasis on edge overlaps... it's something I started noticing at the overlap areas - and yes, BOTH overlaps - on not just Mexico City colonial bust 8R but other issues, as noted above.

The technicals of HOW the planchet gets impacted (though it is of course interesting and informative)... I just know that I've seen the effect enough on varying colonies/mints/denominations to have long since become convinced it's a trait that presents on REGAL pieces.

As an example, was thinking back to a discussion on here a few years back - this effect clearly demonstrated on a genuine PILLAR Mexico 8R. Jfransch confirmed that the flattened area I asked about (and similar across from it) are where the overlaps are. It is perhaps a bit more evident at the III ordinal... but CERTAINLY also present at the other overlap (ND of "IND"):

http://goccf.com/t/308776#2647685
Edited by realeswatcher
11/29/2020 12:44 pm
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 Posted 11/29/2020  12:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thinking about it, off the top of my head, 1830s-40s Zacatecas is an issue that I recall displaying this. So, as a few examples... obviously, we can't see the edge in these pics, but you KNOW the overlaps will be at those flat spots.

An 8R and a 4R... both displaying distinct flattened points 180 degrees across from each other.

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