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1983 D Lincoln (Initially Thought PMD But Now Not So Sure)

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/05/2020  03:46 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I ran across this guy earlier today and found some incuse lettering on both sides of the coin. Initially thought vice job but after looking at it a bit longer and noticing there wasnt any other obvious damage you would assume would be on either side of the coin, especially the raised parts, I started to think maybe it was something special. Not a clash but some sort of blockage possibly? There is the remnants of UST on the bottom of the bust that is exactly 180 degrees from the UST in INGWT on the obverse and on the reverse, you can see incuse remnants of IGWT on the rim of the coin. The thing that got me thinking it isn't PMD is that the incuse lettering on the reverse edge is deeper than the normal US of A devices right below the edge of the coin. There are no other signs of the coin being flattened or smashed and if it was a vice job, youd def see the raised parts of the coin flattened because of how close the raised parts are to the incused parts. I'm thinking these features were on the planet before it was actually stamped. The mirror incuse of IGWT sits way below UNITED STATES of AMERICA. ATheres no way you could do that post mint without affecting the rest of the devices and the memorial and bust as well. I also supplied pics of the edge of the coin on both sides that shows some kind of off center strike and the edge of the coin shows splitting as well, almost like a MAD. Any opinions welcome.








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 Posted 12/05/2020  05:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's some pics with the issues circled. Just in case my description was a little too descriptive.

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 Posted 12/05/2020  06:38 am  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it's Post Strike Damage. The letters are reversed, a classic feature of a vise job. It looks like it reads DOG NI on the obverse and TS on the reverse. Because the letters were transferred to both sides, it looks as if three coins were used. !GNIKOOL PEEK
The first US coin motto was found on a 1792 half disme and read: "LIB (erty) PAR (ent) OF SCIENCE & INDUSTRY"

Edited by Yokozuna
12/05/2020 06:46 am
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 Posted 12/05/2020  08:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add That coin dude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah lol.
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 Posted 12/05/2020  09:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree, vise job.
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 Posted 12/05/2020  1:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Note they are all mirrored, and not in correct positive view that would be present if the coin was double struck. Just a spender.

Or a hammer job between to pieces of wood and a couple other coins. (The vise makes a full copy off a other coin. The hammer job just affects the area where the coins raised devices were hit by the hammer between two piece of wood. So not all the devices are present)
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 Posted 12/05/2020  4:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add merclover to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I too am thinking vise job. Reversed letters are the key.

A few too many photos. Please crop your photos in future posts. Thanks.
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 Posted 12/05/2020  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First off, I'd like to say thanks for your opinions. I too immediately thought vice job from the get go. But after looking at it more and looking at other examples of vice jobs, a lot I might add, vice jobs usually affect a large portion of the coin. Like if you squeeze a coin against another coin, it's going to affect all the raised fields of the coin, it's going to be pretty obvious. I get the point that 99% of the time when you see reversed incused devices on a coin, it's almost always a home made, vice job error. But explain how IGWT is stamped backeards into the edge of the penny on the reverse and those incused letters sit lower than the raised devices of US of A. If it was a vice job, the US of A devices would also be affected by the "vice job" and would have been altered by the bottom part of the IGWT slogan. Also, when you look at vice jobs, almost the entire field is affected by the squeeze. Raised areas are flattened, other devices are imprinted in corresponding areas. This coin shows no other evidence of being squeezed other than having reversed, incused letters, on the rim and the bottom.of the bust, which also happen to be in exact 180 degree opposites of the actual normal devices. I also normally crop my photos, this was an anomaly. I also included extra photos showing the rim of the coin because it shows signs of a misalignment and cracking and splitting on both sides of the coin. I know someone will chime in with " Pareidolia" but I wouldnt waste my time even posting this if I didnt see some obvious red flags to the vice job opinion. It comes down to the fact you can't imprint IGWT on the rim of the coin by vice, without affecting any other part of the reverse, especially since the imprint sits considerably lower than the devices right underneath the affected area.
Edited by Waynoah83
12/05/2020 9:18 pm
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 Posted 12/05/2020  11:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Besides reversed incuse devices, give me another reason why this coin is a vice job. If it is a legit homemade vice job, you would be able to give multiple reasons why. This is an honest question.
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 Posted 12/06/2020  12:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numiscrat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just manufactured a similar effect with the incuse, mirrored IGWT lettering on the rim without damaging the lettering below. I think I understand where you are coming from on what you expect to see. You are envisioning two coins pressed squarely against each other in a vise, correct? But, what is called a "vise job" could be created from multiple tools, or from improperly aligned coins in a vise.

In the photo, please consider how these pliers do not have parallel jaws. That means the pressure is concentrated on the inner part of the jaws closest to the hinge. In fact, as I squeezed harder, the opposite sides could kick-out away from each other. I hooked the rim of one coin inside the rim of the other coin to get something similar to the pictures you have. Sadly, I do not have the equipment or skills to get the quality photos of coins as you do. I just know how to creatively damage them.

Edited by Numiscrat
12/06/2020 12:15 am
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 Posted 12/06/2020  12:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numiscrat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Waynoah83,

I tried again to take pictures of the results I got. My pictures are awful compared to yours, and would not offer much proof of what I obtained. I have some equipment to buy and work to do to get photos as good as yours.

If you want to test my hypothesis, it works better with cents which have distinct rims. I applied enough pressure I thought I might break the handles of the cheap needle nose pliers in my picture.

It might be possible to get the same effect in something with parallel jaws, like a vise or properly adjusted channel locks, but the rims will need to be caught in the edge of the jaws.
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 Posted 12/06/2020  05:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I get that you could possibly recreate this effect in an extremely controlled environment, the same could be said for almost any error if you had the right tools. I work at a metal fabrication company and could easily mimic almost any variety or error there is in just a few minutes without even breaking a sweat or readjusting the machinery we use on a daily basis. Why even waste your time with this type of alteration when it rarely brings a premium and is almost always considered PMD. Then throw it back in circulation. In order for this coin to have the damage that bbn is assumed it would have involved multiple coins, a press or vice, spacers to protect the entire coin from the damage a vice would do in order to get these imprints. Plus the fact,like I said, IGWT is imprinted in reverse on the rim, quite a bit deeper on the rim of the coin than the raised devices immediately below it. Plus the fact that the imprints on both sides of.the coin are 180 degrees exactly rotated? Look up vice job or PMD.that is supposedly like this. You won't find an example like this coin that doesn't have correlating damage across the rest of the coin, making it obvious it was a die job to begin with.
Edited by Waynoah83
12/06/2020 06:10 am
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 Posted 12/06/2020  06:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Waynoah83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also, I'm not a moron. I might not have thousands of posts on this forum like some people,but that is mainly because I have a life outside of numismatics. I also very rarely post anymore because A) I dont look as much as I used to so I dont find as much B) I've learned a ton from being part of the community and C) the last couple finds I've shared on the forum, save for some Obvious DDs, have all been explained away in a second and I have later found out that I would have lost 2 rpms, a DDR, a DDO, and a RIDB. And everyone was so sure. Not even a "well, this is what I think, but it's just an opinion". Its always a "I'm 100% sure youre wrong, I have 4000 posts on here, so obviously I know all" to a beginner that means a lot. There are people on here who literally comment on every post and think they know everything and if we always went by these people's standards, the 1982 small date wouldnt exist. The 1992 d clam wouldn't be a real thing, etc. Sorry, but I know the coin I have posted here couldnt have Vice Zdmage that created
incuse devices that sit twice as low as raised ones that sit immediately now them. Its impossible to occur from a vice job.
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 Posted 12/06/2020  07:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numiscrat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But it is possible. My frustration is that I cannot post a picture of it.

You asked for reasons why and how folks might call this a "vise job." I provided a reason why and why it might not be exactly done with a vise. For me to reproduce what you showed— with the incuse lettering on the rim only, no damage elsewhere—the greatest expenditure of time was to go get some cents out of my change bowl. All that was required was a $2 pair of pliers that I use for squashing staples on my 2x2's. That is not exactly the work of a bored machinist in a well appointed shop. No spacers or special effort was required to protect the rest of the coin. That happens naturally because the setup does not apply force squarely to the faces.

All that would have to happen is for someone to have a stack of coins with weight/pressure applied. Force is actually sometimes difficult to apply evenly through a stack of objects, if there are misalignments or imperfections in areas of a stack. The damage doesn't even have to be intentional—folks use one cent coins as shims... And people dump damaged coins back into circulation all of the time without intent to deceive.
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 Posted 12/06/2020  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry to hear some of the coins you posted were misattributed. Glad you caught them.

Aren't the secondary letters reversed and incuse as others have said? They sure look it to me and that would not happen from the dies. If struck twice, the dies would produce details like ... well, like a normal strike in the secondary location.

Here is one of your images of the secondary "ST" of TRUST. I've added arrows to help visualize the second (or third) coin that caused this PSD (the rim of the second coin even left an incuse arc near the rim.)

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 Posted 12/08/2020  08:30 am  Show Profile   Check Yokozuna's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The incuse, reversed letters on both sides of this coin are from the inscription IN GOD WE TRUST. This indicates that two other coins were used to modify this coin, with the obverse against both sides of this coin.

The rims and fields show contact damage from other coin's rims. (as in Petespockets55's example.) Raised rims are not present on the dies used to strike coins. They can only be found on coins after they have been struck.

The highest points in Lincoln's hair look flattened above and behind the ear. Most likely more damage from pressure from another coin. (Seen in image 1)


The term Vise Job doesn't mean that a vise was used. It just a general term for PSD caused by squeezing two or more coins together. It's quite common to see coins that have been modified in this way. If the pressure was only applied in small areas, at angles or using only small sections cut from a normal coin, only a small area would show the corresponding contact damage as incuse and reversed letters.

I'm still of the opinion that at least two other coins were used to create this coin.

The letters are incuse and reversed, so they had to come from other coins. No part of the coining press or dies could have caused this. If the letters came from contact with a die, they would be raised and wouldn't be inverted.

The first US coin motto was found on a 1792 half disme and read: "LIB (erty) PAR (ent) OF SCIENCE & INDUSTRY"

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