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1797 Two Pence 68.4g ?

 
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New Member

United Kingdom
1 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2020  9:16 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add skyemaniac to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have a George III Cartwheel Two Pence, weighing 68.4g?

Any Ideas?

Thickness 6mm

I'm confused.



Edited by skyemaniac
12/29/2020 9:41 pm
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United States
19572 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2020  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@skye, first welcome to CCF. Second, I'm moving your thread over to the UK section of this forum so that we can get the right eyeballs on it and help answer your questions. Overall pics of both sides of the coin would help though.

Finally, I'm thinking that you may need to wait a few hours until your countrymen wake up to get much of an answer, although perhaps someone from ANZ will weigh in while you wait for then.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18558 Posts
 Posted 12/29/2020  10:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Official issues weight range 56.3 to 58.1 grams,
diameter 41mm, thickness 5mm.

Coin pictured could be an unofficial re striking by (W.J. Taylor)* in 1848, from original dies.
Quick calculation suggest coin pictured should be 6mm thick.

* Soon after 1848, W.J. Taylor migrated to Melbourne and set up a copper token minting business, later to become Stokes.
He also struck the extremely rare Port Philip (2 Ounce)**, 1 Ounce, Half Ounce and Quarter Ounce gold patterns.

** two examples exist. I have had the British Museum example sitting in the palm of my hand.
Edited by sel_69l
12/29/2020 10:15 pm
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
630 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2020  04:39 am  Show Profile   Check PaddyB's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't tell you exactly what it is, but it is certainly not struck from the original dies. There are many differences in style - most notably the form of the shield on the reverse and the detail of the hair and drapery on the obverse.
If you compare with this genuine original you can see what I mean:


Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18558 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2020  08:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
C Wilson Peck reported a huge number of minor die varieties.
I consideration of this,
I am still unable to offer any sort of reliable opinion as to
if the coin pictured is, or is not, from original dies.
Nevertheless,
I have to admit:- the face and style of Britannia does lead to suspicion.
Edited by sel_69l
12/30/2020 08:40 am
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
630 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2020  10:16 am  Show Profile   Check PaddyB's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The differences on the OP coin from a typical genuine coin are not "minor" in any way. In addition to the many differences in style, the central panels are not as deeply set as they should be. Right ones have a rounded edge to the lip of the central area, whereas the OP coin is square and too shallow.
I would suspect a much later attempt to produce a replica or fake - but why they chose to do it on too thick a piece of copper, I cannot explain.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18558 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2020  6:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am now tempted to speculate:
The early Australian token products of of W.J. Taylor were not quite up to the standard of English tokens of the 1812 to 1815 period.
My speculation is that W.J. Taylor may have made the dies for the coin pictured.
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United States
100870 Posts
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
593 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2020  03:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Paddy is correct, without even considering the excess weight and thickness, this in no way resembles an official issue cartwheel. The reverse, particularly, is so clumsily rendered and amateurish. All the same, an unusual item and I'd love to know more regarding it's origin and intended purpose.

Valued Member
United Kingdom
476 Posts
 Posted 03/13/2021  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zookeeperz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Modern copy probably from XXX. Craftmanship always catches the bad coins out.

Note from mod: Sorry but we don't allow the naming of that website here on CCF.
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New Zealand
2652 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2021  11:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will never have this problem again.

You can buy good quality scales for like $20, I bought a set that weighs to the nearest 0.01grams and does weights in grains, ounces etc for you traditionalists and Americans.

Of course buy them discretely as these scales I am sure are not aimed squarely at coin collectors (Hint hint more likely for more street level impulse traders).
Loving Halfcrowns. British and Commonwealth coins 1750 - 1950 and anything Kiwi.
If it's round, shiny and silvery I will love it.
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Australia
13658 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2021  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Concur it's a fake. Intriguing to me are the clear punch-marks around each of the letters in the legends - which makes me wonder if each letter was hand-stamped onto the coin.

Which leaves the questions of Why and When. Its appearance, combined with the weight being significantly higher than standard, makes me think it is a modern replica, rather than a contemporary circulating counterfeit.

Let's call it the "Soto Mint" copy - as that's the name appearing beneath Britannia, rather than "Soho".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
593 Posts
 Posted 04/02/2021  09:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

It's not 'unresearched' or a Taylor restrike, it's a fake.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1797-GEO...114749765784
Valued Member
United Kingdom
142 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2021  07:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gainn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Britannia should have stayed off the pies.

That's one ugly looking fauxgery.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
593 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2021  09:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hogarth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

'Could be an unofficial re striking from original dies'. Hilarious.
Valued Member
United Kingdom
142 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2021  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gainn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
'Could be an unofficial re striking from original dies'. Hilarious.

"unresearched" (x2)
"Could be" (x2)
"unofficial"
completely unattributed reference.

Seems legit.

(missing the other ambiguous descriptor - "uncertain" - or it would be a near clean sweep)
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