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Counterfeiters Got Me! 1822 Gojm 8 Reales

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 519Next Topic  
New Member

United States
10 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2021  9:23 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I've been looking into getting some Royalist 8 reales issues and I bought a nice worn 1822 GoJM 8R the other day (although Calbeto states this was struck on old dies once the new government was in control, so technically not Royalist...). I had checked the coin against Calbeto and a few nice ones on Stacks and nothing was glaringly wrong, so pulled the trigger. I did my home SG test (weight = 26.52 g) and got a result of 9.86! So clearly a Type I counterfeit, maybe GNL#1822-O: D/R: Go JM-001, but I'm not sure if the exact variety can be determined due to wear. What do you all think? Not much detail can be had from the edge, which is very worn and and smooth on half the coin.

I didn't intend to buy a CCC with this coin but am glad I ended up with one since they seem to be kind of scarce for this mint. I can see why Riddell called similar coins "low standard" because the fonts/portrait seem very well executed.


Valued Member
United States
301 Posts
 Posted 06/16/2021  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MisterT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A SG of 9.86 is closer to that of a 40% silver clad rather than 90% silver. Have you tried the SG test several times to repeat the results? Errors as small as .1gm when weighing it can significantly alter the calculation. Sometimes performing the SG test is tricky and requires lab like precision. Even a breeze blowing over the scale can throw it off.
New Member
United States
10 Posts
 Posted 06/20/2021  4:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for responding! And sorry for the delay in my response, it's been a crazy week.

I did the measurement twice and used a scale accurate to 0.01 g. I got a weight of 26.51 g for the coin the second time, but the result was basically the same. I agree that this measurement is easily thrown off, but since I have been getting measurements of about 10.3 for coins I believe are genuine, I think this coin is probably a debased counterfeit.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5195 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2021  11:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
threefifty Nice catch.

I would concur with you that you have the obverse die 1822 D but the reverse die is a close but not identical die using most of the same die punches. The spacings on the reverse die are slightly off. It is in my opinion a different die not a sub-variety. I would speculate it was made in the same counterfeiting shop.

If I get around to publishing a revised second edition of the GNL book - I would number it as GNL#1822-O: D/R: Go JM-005. Even though the obverse is worn the break in the D of DEI seals it for me.

Nice to see interest in this series - even if by accident.

The SG you have calculated is consistent with others I have seen. The Riddell "Low Standard" types (12 in the Portrait series) run from a low of 354 to a high of 700. So it also falls in that range as well. I believe when more of the portrait and details are visible that the dies look to be more clearly Counterfeit types. In particular the King's eye is poorly executed.

I have to agree with you that the letter punches are very good copies on a par with the Birmingham die punches.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
New Member
United States
10 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2021  5:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks swamperbob - I appreciate the information, thank you for taking the time to look over the coin! I'll try to keep an eye out for a less worn version with better details... though it seems there is a high degree of wear for 26.51 g, so maybe the counterfeiters used worn (on purpose) dies as I believe you have noted for some other issues in your book.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5195 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2021  9:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
threefifty Based on the highest grade I have observed of this particular D obverse die - the coin was made to look at least VF possibly better when struck. Your example has received considerable wear indicating it was either very successful or it was carried as a pocket piece for some reason.

A heavier than normal weight is a very common circumstance with some counterfeiters particularly in the period these counterfeits circulated. It was likely done intentionally to help their fakes pass more easily by taking advantage of greed on the part of some merchants. Many merchants familiar with mint and bank reports were on the lookout for overweight 8 Reales originals to profit from unsuspecting customers. These merchants paid face value for overweight coins but invariably discounted worn coins. Therefore a heavy coin likely did not get examined as closely as an underweight example by this type of greedy person.

In many instances it is the greed of the mark that is used by the passer to make the fraud easier to pull off. It is the basis of the con I have written about before in several forums where a small innocent looking kid approaches a tourist trying to sell a forgery of a silver coin for far less than the silver value. The coin is usually rather dirty when passed like this (forgers use black goop baked on) but the mark usually knows a Morgan dollar (for instance) is worth more than $1 because it is silver, so he pays the kid 50 cents, a dollar or even more when the kid asks for 50 cents. The forged Morgan dollars in white metal wholesale for 10 cents or less right now in bulk. The mark does not look at the coin closely until later, often when they can not possibly return. The kid turns a 500-1000% profit for the handlers. This scam has been run very successfully since WWII and I have observed the operation many times on vacation. It is done in flea market areas, tourist stops on cruises and even at airports in underdeveloped countries.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1206 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2021  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am guilty of this myself because I eagerly bought a Chinese coin from a dealer.
I thought the dealer didn't know what he had, and maybe he didn't, but my greed got me the coin.
Then later I found it not to be genuine like I thought it could be.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5195 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2021  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Albert Do you still have the coin as a reminder of what not to do?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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