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Seated Liberty Half Dollar 1853 O A&r Grade Request

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 Posted 06/23/2021  01:30 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Bchill27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I'm needing some expert opinions on a grade about a coin I paid a grand for. I figured you all would be the best of the best for this, so here it is:



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 Posted 06/23/2021  01:57 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to CCF!

A few points I'm gonna rattle off with this coin. Firstly, it appears to be a UNC coin, but a problem coin. The fields appear heavily hairlined, and the both sides suffer from Environmental Damage. That said, at $1000 you didn't do too poor as long as you like the coin.
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 Posted 06/23/2021  02:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bchill27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your analysis! I'm having PCGS look at it for possible restoration, if it isn't too far gone. The toning is just too much for my liking. Being that it was an online purchase, and I'm pretty green in numismatics, I failed to see the hairlines prior to purchase....only looked at strike. Rookie mistake.
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 Posted 06/23/2021  08:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree MS details. Best of luck.



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 Posted 06/23/2021  08:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok m having a hard time determining if those are hairlines or die polishing. At first glance I thought hairlines, but I'm having a hard time finding any that pass over the devices. Does appear to be raised die polishing marks on lady liberty's left leg. At the same time, I do think I see hairlines over her right arm.

Regardless, as Grape said, going to be Details due to ED as well. A TPG would probably go UNC Details.
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 Posted 06/23/2021  10:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the circular motion of the hairlines bother me. the only ones I can pick out are crossing over the neck area under the chin just above the chest area. I think the blotchy-ness of the toning may be hiding a few things and not sure the coin would pull a straight grade. nice photos. AU58 or MS63 possible details
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 Posted 06/23/2021  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ploopy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AU Details
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 Posted 06/23/2021  1:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am leaning toward a cleaning as the hairlines stop short of the details. Die polish lines typical go all the way to the details. A concern that I would have with restoration and removing any toning my expose more cleaning. A restoration can not improve the hairlines or ED. UNC Details Cleaned & ED. If the coin comes back AU details, you are going to pay some rookie tuition fees. It is good that you are sending the coins in for grading as you can improve your buying skills with the PCGS feedback on grades before you get too deep into your collection.
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 Posted 06/23/2021  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bchill27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Slider. I dont mind revealing more damage, if it makes the coin more eye-appealing. Hopefully, whatever damage was done isn't too bad. I might just turn around and sell it, if so.
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 Posted 06/23/2021  9:16 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grade? I'm thinking PCGS will not be as good here, AU details environmental issues.

Good luck it's a nice coin regardless of whatever PCGS says. Also looking forward to seeing Phil's photo work on this one, I'm sure he will bring out any hidden colors we don't get from these photos.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
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Edited by westcoin
06/23/2021 11:05 pm
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 Posted 06/23/2021  9:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doubt these blotchy surfaces can be improved, but please keep us up to date.
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 Posted 06/23/2021  10:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Heymikep to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AU details and is an EDS WB-21.
Edited by Heymikep
06/23/2021 10:21 pm
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 Posted 07/15/2021  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bchill27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It came back from PCGS as AU Details, polished.

This was went through their restoration program. I noticed some improvements to areas with black toning, but I'm sad that buying online has not been nearly the success I hoped it would be. Well, that is to say my eye for quality is not on par with most of you. I have a very difficult time spotting cleaning, or surface smoothing.

Here are the TrueView pics, post restoration:


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 Posted 07/15/2021  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bchill27 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The obverse got a WB21 designation, too.

It looks like the date might have been punched twice? Thoughts?
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 Posted 07/15/2021  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AU-58 details, cleaned, environmental issues.
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 Posted 07/15/2021  10:23 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Phill's True View photos sure make a nice improvement on this one. Not sure about the WB21 designation and pricing. See the following attached photos I linked for you.

Most all of Bill's books are available now for download or online reading at Newman Numismatic Portal.

https://nnp.wustl.edu/library/booksbyauthor/361











As to the "smoothing" here is a good definition for you. This was copied from a site pertaining to Ancient coinage, but it applies here. It is a technique more often seen on gold coins in the US series, but it applies to all metals, I've been fooled myself with some very deceptive early copper large cents before.


Quote:

Smoothing is the grinding down of the metal surface of the fields on a coin (usually bronze) to "smooth" pitted, rough areas. Smoothing can also be performed on areas other than the fields, however, if the work modifies the original form of the reliefs or attempts to recreate worn or corroded details, then it must be described as tooling, not smoothing. Smoothing is a form of tooling but is less destructive. In the 19th century smoothing was perceived as an improvement. Today it is seen as destructive but it is still done by unscrupulous "conservators" to deceptively "improve" coins.

Smoothing is sometimes incorrectly used to describe a form of cleaning where a rough green patina or copper oxide encrustations (often red lumps) are smoothed down to field or detail level. This "smoothing" is better described as cleaning and can enhance the appearance and value of a coin if it is limited to removing encrustations and protrusions. To prevent confusion, the term smoothing should not be used to describe this type of cleaning. The term smoothing should be used only when the metal of the coin has been altered.

Some well done light smoothing is acceptable to many collectors, particularly on large bronze coins from old 19th century collections, with "old cabinet toning." Sometimes even some tooling can be tolerated. A collector may find a smoothed or tooled coin worth purchasing if the coin is a particularly desirable type or priced low. Do not, however, pay more for a coin that has tooling or smoothing "improvements" than you would for a worn or pitted example. Tooling and smoothing are damage and reduce rather than enhance value. How much smoothing or tooling you find tolerable is a personal decision. Many collectors will not tolerate any smoothing or tooling whatsoever.


I know you said you were new to this investment/collecting area, and I sure hope this doesn't spoil it for you, and that you stay involved, get some books and learn as much as you can before tossing a lot of money into coins again, and next time (I sincerely hope there is a next time) you find a good mentor/dealer that can guide you on your path to the better coins, I can think of a few dealers I would go to myself if I was buying coins in the over $10K range before spending any money, if only for an opinion on my already schooled 40 years of doing this. Current market trends and things in the TPG grading world change fast and nobody that isn't in the trenches every day would know certain bits of information.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
07/15/2021 10:34 am
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