Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Incuse Doubling Binig A Double Die

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 364Next Topic  
New Member
United States
25 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  09:33 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Raizac to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
hello,
i would like to have a chat/discussion with @coop. on his post about incuse doubling this image blow.

by this photo you're showing a normal incuse coin on top and the lower coin your calling a DOUBLE DIE. I am having trouble seeing any doubling in that lower photo as I see 1 image of the devices. what I am seeing in the lower photo is a well-worn die ready to be replaced. as the devices on the die that creates the incuse are RAISED on the die over time, they would get thinner and have damage as shown by your photo on the top and middle of the R the left side of the I, and the left side of the B and u. this looks like the die took a lot of were on the left side of those devices. I do not see a double image of any of the devices as shown here in the photo below

for an incuse double die to HAPPEN the DIE would have to look like the photo above. as the devices on the die would be RAISED creating an actual incuse DOUBLE DIE

the WORD"" double die "" (also known as hub doubling) is a term in numismatics used to refer to a duplication of design elements on a working die created due to a misalignment of the die or hub during the hubbing process
can you clarify the meaning of your photo
Edited by Raizac
06/02/2022 10:15 am
Bedrock of the Community
United States
45723 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  09:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 6.5 +/- Million Cents Since 1971
New Member
United States
25 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  10:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Raizac to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
sorry ANYONE can offer their thoughts/opinions on my post if you want
if you think I'm a way off the mark or just plain wrong or did I misunderstand coops photo
Edited by Raizac
06/02/2022 10:46 am
Valued Member
United States
378 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HGK3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a confusing subject. Because until recently incuse devices on US coins were very uncommon, almost all the discussion about doubled dies (and it is "doubled die", not "double die") and almost all the terminology we use around doubled dies involved coins with raised devices.

We've all learned to look for enlarged devices because when the working die is created the devices are incuse on it and a slight misalignment of the working hub creates the appearance of an enlarged image.

Think of it like putting your hand into wet cement, lifting it up, and then putting it pack in almost, but not quite, the exact same spot. The two impressions of your hand in the wet cement, being slightly different from each other, will create the appearance of a double image of your hand. The further the second impression is from the first the more substantial the image.

When the working die creates a coin then the slightly larger incuse devices on the die makes the slightly larger raised device on the coin.

Incuse devices, though, are the exact opposite. On the working die, they are raised and when a misaligned hub creates the doubled device on the working die they actually reduce the size of the raised device.

Going back to the wet cement analogy, imagine you create an impression in the cement using a stencil. The stencil would create a raised mark/area on the concrete, correct? Now move the stencil slightly (to simulate the misaligned hub) and re-press it back into the wet cement and you'll see your original stencil is slightly smaller because part of the raised element has been pushed down when the misaligned stencil was reapplied.

Since the raised device on the die, which is doubled, is now smaller in size when it creates a coin the incuse device on the coin will be reduced in size.



Edited by HGK3
06/02/2022 12:03 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
58744 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
(Now that You've added the second image, with the incuse devices versus the raised devices, I am adding to this discussion below on incuse devices, rather than removing this discussion on the raised devices. So my next post below)

A doubled die has hub doubling on the die when the die was created. Extreme hub doubling is like the stronger doubled dies:


Note the second hub process added new devices to the die in a rotated fashion. That is called a class one doubled die. The illustration is a drawing to show the differences between a normal devices and Machine Doubling and a doubled die:



There are 9 different classes of doubled dies.


So on each class different things can happen during the hub creation purposes. But Class One are the more desirable ones.
Other strong examples of Class One DDO's

Here is a side by side to show the differences the illustrations were showing:

Note normal Liberty Compared with a Machine doubled coin versus a true doubled die. Note the doubling of devices seen on the Bottom image. That is what you are seeing in the drawing a spread between the hub process created on the die. This makes all the coins show that same exact doubling on each coin. The spread most times affects the centers of the devices. A doubled die can have Machine Doubling:

Note the hub doubling on the full date devices, but the mint mark will show no hub doubling on it. But then note the yellow arrows. They are pointing to where there is Machine Doubling. So a doubled die can have Machine Doubling, but Machine Doubling never creates a doubled die. Why, be cause if doubling is on the die. All the machine that is loose does is to alter the outside/inside edges of the devices. Thus when you see the size of the devices on the previous image, the normal devices are one size. The Machine Doubling removes the contour of the devices, thus making the devices smaller. But on a doubled die, the spread enlarges the devices.

Thus when you see Machine Doubling, it is often in a 90 degree angle, removing the contour on that side of the devices. That was the purpose of that illustration that you posted part of.
1. A normal coin is from a normal hub die process.
2. Machine Doubling alters the devices post strike with a loose machine. (Even doubled dies can be affected by this contour removal)
3. A doubled die comes from a die that has doubling created on the die. The machine does not create a doubled die, it is on the die, thus the term "Doubled Die.".
Hope this helps?

CoopHome: I keep find Machine Doubling on coins and think they are doubled dies. What am I missing?
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
06/02/2022 12:16 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
58744 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  12:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On incuse devices everything changes. The rules are just opposite of the raised devices. (What?)
1. On raised devices a doubled die will be showing spread. Incuse devices are below the surface of the fields. (Just the opposite of each other)
2. So when you see Machine Doubling on raised devices, it reduces/removes part of the devices by removing part of the contour of the devices. It looks like a 90 degree push mark on the outside/inside edges of the devices. On incuse devices, the Machine Doubling enlarges the devices. The metal movement from the dies raised devices pushes the metal aside on the Machine Doubling. (Again just the opposite of Machine Doubling on raised devices. So how can you visualize this?

Take a look at this illustration:
Top image showing enlargement of devices that are Machine Doubling.
Middle image is of the normal size of the devices.
Bottom image is of reduced image sizes on the doubled die. (Again just the opposite of raised devices)
How can I prove this? But showing the way that I learned this myself on a 2013 DDR. It was an eye opener to me:
First The raised Devices with an example of a normal coin:







Now the incuse devices with the reduced in size devices:




So there are two sets of rules on a coin. The raised devices will be affected one way. The incuse devices just the opposite. It took me a while to get that all figured out. So the drawing was created way before the the single squeeze dies. That is when we started noticing the differences. (2013) Hope this helps.

CoopHome: How are raised and incuse devices by Machine Doubling and doubled dies?
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
New Member
United States
25 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  2:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Raizac to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
coop thank you for your response
I'm not looking to understand actual Doubling DDO / DDR I know what they are and have a discovery coin under my belt, and have found plenty of DDO / DDR from a 1966 DDR quarter vf30 grade in my collection but thanks for clarifying what an actual Double die is.


sorry I did not see your newest post


Edited by Raizac
06/02/2022 2:50 pm
New Member
United States
25 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2022  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Raizac to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thank you coop for the clarification on this issue. still confusing!!! have any of those coin's been attributed by the TPGs
when I saw the photos of J.F.M and the doubling this is what I found on the 2020-D salt river bay quarter WDDR-001 this is listed on J.Wexlers website but he has it as a P-minted coin. yes I SAID D MINT and he knows his listing is a type-o. it is a minor double die but still a double die
  Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 364Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.





Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.46 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: