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Collectors Of American Innovation Dollars - In Particular P And D Business Strikes

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 Posted 06/30/2022  11:19 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have been collecting American Innovation Dollars - business strikes, proof and rev proof sets since 2019. My observation regarding the P and D business strikes is that the 2018 and 2019 have resulted in the some excellent quality coins, but starting in 2020 the quality becomes more uneven. The first coin I found a little challenging to find in rolls and bags in a grade roughly above MS65 was the Gerber Variable commemorative coin. But I find any coin with much open space in its design risks having more than usual bag marks and light scratches from coin contact. But I noted in late 2021 with Chesapeake Bay Tunnel Bridge one (VA) they were prone to more bag marks and scratches than prior coins. I have seen this trend continue to varying degrees.

Considering the above, how many rolls and bags from each mint of the business strike American Innovation Dollars do you purchase?

Keep in mind the US Mint sells rolls at a healthy premium (bags not so bad) and high end retail prices according to PCGS for MS 66 to 67 run 25 - 35 dollars or higher on average (so on ebay and a few other secondary market I would say the price is 6 - 15, with the occasional buyer willing to spend $60+ on a slabbed coin from PCGS or NGC)

I ask as I plan on adjusting the amount of rolls and bags I buy as my income lowers somewhat next year. Hearing other collectors experience searching for those AI P and D in a grade above MS65 would be helpful to me. Thanks!

*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
Edited by coinnewcomer1
06/30/2022 11:22 pm
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 Posted 07/01/2022  12:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Erscolo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do not purchase any rolls or bags, that is just way too many coins. What I do is purchase them from a seller who gets them in rolls direct from the Mint. I get both Position A and Position B (though at my age I have a hard time seeing the edging) of each issue. That makes sixteen coins a year plus the proof set and the reverse proof set. The coins I get are pretty good, though a grade above Gem BU is not very common.
Edited by Erscolo
07/01/2022 12:11 pm
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 Posted 07/01/2022  1:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bzookaj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Like above, I don't buy rolls either. I buy each year at a time from whomever is cheap, usually ebay. Two sets from each mint P and D, and then I put the better looking ones in my album.
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 Posted 07/01/2022  1:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DanFielding to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Like above, I buy from someone on eBay who buys from the mint. I just bought the Kentucky coins for $4 for the pair. I don't always buy them from the same person, I go with whoever is cheaper.
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 Posted 07/01/2022  2:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Same here for the innovations, I only buy P and D coins from eBay. bags and roll are far too many coins for me to have to deal with. I get the proof and RP from the mint (2 sets) one to keep in OGP anf hte other to break out and place them into my Dansco albums with the P and D I get from the bay.
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 Posted 07/01/2022  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Raised on rock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also buy P & D from EBAY. Not interested in position A or B.
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 Posted 07/01/2022  4:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DaRukus660 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


well it sounds like I will have a few coins soon. I just bought two rolls of Native American and something else. learn everyday

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 Posted 07/01/2022  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@coinnewcomer1 Yes since there is such a quality difference on some recent circulated coins and your goal is to have the best condition of them, I would purchase the P&D via 1 bag from the mint, cherrypick out the best condition, and then offer the rest up on ebay as most collectors just like to have sets and look to places like ebay to buy just the single coins in a set and many people are not quite looking for the 'ms69+ example'. You are still selling from a mint roll or bag just have taken out the few of the very best for yourself. Rolls if condition is known to be really bad as bags tend to have more issues. It is the circulated in top condition when conditions are known to vary that will someday have the biggest potential. Some seem to only like the proofs simply because they may be in the best struck condition and just want the different designs and a set rather than trying to find optimal quality of modern American Innovation Dollar circulated coins and likely wont have a major rise in values. It reminds me slightly of 1971-s ike uncirculated and proof dollar as mentioned in nov 21 numismatist. uncirculated were bagged in bulk and shipped to ny for packaging causing lower quality. proof did not have this issue. P+D circulated also had poor quality

One other thing is to consider trying to snipe already graded examples for the years known to have poor quality, which may be less then cost of finding and possibly grading yourself, as if the value is whatever its going for now and the quality greatly is that different, these top grades will surely continue to rise somewhat over time. But this series doesn't have the same demand as say quarters so collect what makes you happy to own and not everything has to be about profit.
Edited by datadragon
07/01/2022 6:38 pm
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 Posted 07/02/2022  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the input --- especially datadragon. Actually what I do --- and some of you may think this is a little kooky - I spend a good deal of the mediocre ones or deposit them in a bank. I will sell a few in better condition but the majority that are not really nice Uncs, I spend. Why? Well as is implied by those who buy from ebay and other secondary market channels you do end up with many extra dollar coins if bought from the US Mint. Spending them is not a problem for me as I live in a very large city with public transportation vending machines and laundromats that accept dollar coins as well as people who use them sometimes for tolls (yes there remains tolls that do not simply read your fare card/pass). Plus in the large city I live people accept dollar coins (well as long as you keep your use to $10 or less toward each purchase). But I do it for another, buy putting them into circulation they will likely go quickly into AU or a lower Unc grade if deposited in the bank and later searched by collectors. So the population of nice Uncs decreases - albeit only very little. If more colelctors did this, it would improve the future value of what nice Uncs they find and, possibly, increase the popularity of these coins by increasing the chance of people finding them in circulation once in a great while. Fortunately mintages for the business strikes seems to be staying below 600,000 for issues from 2020 onward with even the 2019 only approaching 600,000.

I completely understand buying from ebay and have done it for a few series - a few S business strike ATB Quarters and the George Bush dollar coin. But as one whose focus are AI dollars I still feel you pay less a premium buying directly from the US Mint and to sell on ebay any Unc in a grade lower than MS64 risks having you get bad ratings or asked for a return from a buyer. I would rather avoid that hassle and sell just a handful that are MS64 or better on ebay. Right now only selling one there but in the future plan to sell more.

But here are examples of two from the top 5 I could find for the 2022 VT AI P and D bags/rolls search. Some of the tiny scratches may be from the coin capsule but you can see the difficulty of getting these coins in very high MS - the obverse has huge open fields and the reverse has a few open fields and raised areas to allow for bag marks and scratches to occur during the mint/ship process. You can see this on the reverse with that little nick. This would prevent it from ever going above MS65+ but still nicer than a MS64. Generally it seems that grades above MS 65/66 for recent AI business strikes it easy to find (unless you pay the premium dictates by a seller who does find ones in this grade or higher).


Edited by coinnewcomer1
07/02/2022 12:11 am
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 Posted 07/02/2022  08:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice looking coin - but not one I would keep - the bag mark on the field is a big distraction, then the damage on the rim at K10 and K12 make this coin les desirable. If I got this from the Bay, it would go right back
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 Posted 07/02/2022  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slerk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe it 's worth switching to TPG - certified coins ? You will always be sure that MS65 is MS, not AU58. Yes, it's expensive, but it's more convenient and it seems to me more reliable than spending time searching, but I assume that you also get satisfaction from searching.
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 Posted 07/02/2022  12:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dearborn thanks for the input. Appreciate your honesty as I know it comes from many years of experience. I only have a small disagreement with what you would do if you received such a coin from ebay. It may be worth holding onto or you simply purchase those slabbed and graded MS 66 and higher. Here are my reasons:

I see many ebay sellers showing a drawn depiction gotten from the US Mint site of the coins. So I would love to see some of the coins people received from buying from such sellers. I have done this with other series and it can be a crapshot --- sometimes I get ones that are really nice but sometimes just about the average range of what would be expected from cherrypicking from bags and rolls - a range of MS63 - 65 grade.

When you do get a seller who does provide pics of the actual coin you can get a much more realistic idea of how these coins usually appear in uncirculated --- and appreciate that the design elements with their numerous open fields present challenges to finding a truly BU one (as datadragon astutely observed, these coin do share some of the challenges of the Ike dollars which had large open fields on the obverse). As an example.
here are two examples of sellers selling AI business strikes with an honest picture of the average condition of what you may receive or of the slabbed coin: https://www.ebay.com/itm/384829420839
https://www.ebay.com/itm/363890896064

Finally you do end up paying a higher premium for each coin than from the US Mint. FRom the US Mint the premiums are bags 17%, rolls about 40%. The lowest premium I have seen say on ebay was about 80% but more common is 100% or a little more. But yes to save money from buying so many coins and dealing with excess dollar coins, it can be worth paying the higher premiums as some state.

In the near future will try the secondary seller route for AI dollars - let me know which sellers some of you have had most success with.




Edited by coinnewcomer1
07/02/2022 12:41 pm
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 Posted 07/06/2022  9:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is good that you are looking out for your feedback and long term as a seller and there is nothing unusual about reselling only what you consider the better quality examples and spending the rest which fits well into that mindset.

The main point you continue making is that since 2020 the quality has been far more uneven in this series and you, unlike many, are hoping to collect high grade versions of the business strikes that are going to cause issues for finding them due to the varying quality. So the main answer I suggested would be to first try rolls instead of bags, and if that isn't working well still, then move to buying TPG coins only for the business striike. It will eliminate all the issues you mentioned and although you pay since its already graded, it likely would far even out when quality is poor. When the quality improves, move back to bags where you can therefore resell more without worry it will impact your feedback and make it more likely to find what you want through that method. You then also can look for top grades at a discount and grade them to find them, which seems to be difficult when quality becomes uneven.

As mentioned, many people are simply happy just buying the proof sets as they may have the best strike and look but may not generally go up alot in value unless sets were of lower mintage. There are also tons of people who buy business strikes on ebay and would not be unhappy with the example posted especially when you use real world example pictures from the bag which I suggest rather than stock photos when quality is poor, they are not looking for the top grade. Personally I would avoid collecting the business strikes due to the uneven quality unless like you, you are willing to either search hard for them or buy TPG versions. Sometimes when quality is very poor and you put in the effort, the finding of the top grade can ultimately pay off, but these coin series have yet to explode in value at top grades compared to others to do so.
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 Posted 07/06/2022  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also separately I will add that I checked the PCGS pricing guide and it concurs with what you are saying because grades are mostly in MS65-66 for business strikes at top, with just a few at MS67. So finding the best out there and holding it may pay off somepoint as its eventually realized that high graded examples are hard to find, and as the series matures and hopefully grows in popularity people would want the older coins.
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 Posted 07/06/2022  11:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can deal with some small rim dings, but not when they are smack dab in the middle of a very smooth field - a seller I got my AI dollars from is krogerjones
the Woman's quarters sellers I buy from are: joe_socket, koinaholic
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 Posted 07/06/2022  11:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reason some sellers use the Mint's pictures, is because the coins have not yet been released and therefore cannot be photographed properly. I will buy coins that come from a roll and not the bags (which can damage the coins) from these sellers.
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