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Mintage Figure Of 1930 Australian Penny

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 8 / Views: 457Next Topic  
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 Posted 12/01/2022  05:51 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add MachinMachinMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
For many years the mintage figure of the 1930 penny has been widely accepted to be around 3000 coins.

While looking through the 22nd edition of McDonald's "Australian Coins and Banknotes" I noted he now lists the mintage figure to be 1200


Quote:
Estimated mintage figures of 1,200 pieces are based on visitor numbers at the Melbourne Mint in 1930. No accurate figures have yet surfaced.


What would the visitor numbers at the Melbourne Mint in 1930 have to do with the mintage figures of the 1930 penny?
Edited by MachinMachinMan
12/01/2022 05:52 am
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 Posted 12/01/2022  06:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add triggersmob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure if Greg is a member here, but he is on ACF, so I copied and pasted this over there.
Will let you know if I get a reply or he may post here.
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 Posted 12/01/2022  10:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The visitor numbers would be linked to the mintage of 1930 pennies if the old theory of the origin of 1930 pennies, that mint visitors in 1930 would receive a freshly minted 1930 penny as a souvenir of their visit, were true.

The problem is, that theory was debunked years ago.

- None of the 1930 pennies have a provenance stating they were given as a souvenir at a Mint visit. Surely somebody would have remembered this, and told their children?
- There is no evidence that anybody ever saw a 1930 penny until WWII when people suddenly started finding them in change. For over a decade, would nobody have ever gone to a coin club, or gone to a coin dealer, and told them that they had been given a 1930 penny by the Mint?
- The Mint didn't give away souvenir pennies to visitors in any other year. Why would they suddenly start doing it in 1930, then stop in 1931?
- If it were such a common practice that 1200 coins were given away for free (that's an average of 3 coins per day), why is there no record of this practice, anywhere in mint records?
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 12/01/2022  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd also have thought that a high proportion of pennies given to people visiting a Mint would have been treasured and kept as souvenirs and not entered circulation (bearing in mind that many people visiting a mint would be coin collectors), and yet most 1930 pennies are quite well circulated.
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 Posted 12/01/2022  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There is no evidence that anybody ever saw a 1930 penny until WWII when people suddenly started finding them in change. For over a decade, would nobody have ever gone to a coin club, or gone to a coin dealer, and told them that they had been given a 1930 penny by the Mint?


Yes,the Mint swap theory has been put in the dustbin.It would have been big News in the early 1930's as Dealers/Collectors chased them.
Also there would be Unc. Coins on the market,almost every 1930 Penny,except for the proofs, have been in circulation.
Similary the Theory that they were released into circulation in 1930 or 31 has little merit,they would have been ID very quickly by Numismatists who were looking for Overdates and Indian Obverses and monitoring general shenanigans at the Melbourne Mint during the Depression.
As I have posted before a family friend was a Coin/Stamp Dealer for over 30 years,he(and his fellow Dealers of the era) said they turned up in Sydney during the WW11 Coin shortage,doesn't mean they weren't released elsewhere and migrated to Sydney.
His opinion is there was little chance they were released in 1930/31,.........................................................................10%
Released in 1937/38 when we went to the Kangaroo....10%
Released in Sydney during the critical Coin Shortage....70%
Who knows......................................................................10%

On the subject of Pre-Dec Mintage Figures they are guestimates,in the case of the Sydney Mint probably more went out the back door than the front.
This disclaimer from a Renniks guide says it all.



Edited by Basil
12/01/2022 7:07 pm
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 Posted 12/01/2022  6:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The previous "3000" estimate for the mintage of 1930 pennies is derived from the leading alternative theory about their existence: that the coins were made in various "trial runs" just to keep the Mint workers employed in their jobs rather than sack talented staff during the Depression, and one whole box (of 3000 coins) of these trial runs were kept in the vault, in anticipation of an order for pennies from Treasury that never came. Once 1930 was over, the box was then pushed to the back of the Mint's vault, and not taken out until the financial emergency of WWII saw the need for emptying the vault and issuing every coin they could find. Which also neatly explains why nobody ever saw a 1930 penny until WWII.

The "official mintage" for 1930 pennies is, of course, zero; Mint records show they made dies, but never officially used them in a production run.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 12/02/2022  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MachinMachinMan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap and Basil, thanks for the detailed info.
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 Posted 12/02/2022  07:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add triggersmob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A reply by Fred Lever on A.C.F.

Oh Dear.
I thought that particular fairy story had been put to bed ages ago.
The "visitor" book entries have NOTHING to do with the number of1930 dated pennies in circulation.
That is story was just a guess by someone at some time to try to quantify the mintage, with no rational basis.
In short:
The number of 1930 pennies can never be known.
What we do know is when 1930 dated dies were set up in the presses.
In September 1930 a short run was made with the penny dies to prepare the normal specimen coins required as was normal practice.
TWELVE specimens were selected from the short press run and SIX specimens are known to exist.
The "short run" balance presumably went into stock or scrap.
No pennies were ordered in that year by the government so the official circulating mintage for 1930 pennies in the year 1930 was zero.
In September 1931 the 1930 dies were mounted again in the presses and a small number of 1930 amongst a larger number of 1931 dated coins were minted.
No count was made of what coins had what dates.
The Mint satisfied the year 1931 order for pennies by supplying coins dated 1929, 1930 and 1931. (They had a heap of 29's still in stock at the time.)
All of this has been plotted and deduced by examination of government records by mint officials at the time, researchers in the 1970's and researchers now right up to 2022.
The likely number of 1930 dated pennies minted may be in the thousands.
Any guess-estimation today by the known number left in collections and by auctions and sales indicates about the same somewhere around 2000.
Thats the story, just engineering and record, no coins handed out at the front door, special mintage in the 1950's or any other barking mad speculation.

I tried to keep this entry short!
I have written volumes about the 1930 penny, about how they were made, the fakes and so on.
Further reading for the interested can be by back issue of CAB by myself and many other Authors, back issues of the JNNA for papers by researchers.
Upcoming will be the next updated book by Dr Briggs on Aussie coppers with a much-expanded section on1930.
Cheers, Fred.
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 Posted 12/02/2022  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Basil to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The number of 1930 pennies can never be known.


Yes,but that applies to nearly every year of pre-Dec. Coins.

As I've posted before Dealers back in the 1960's thought the estimated mintage figures for the 1925 penny were grossly under what was minted. It was obviously a low mintage compared to the millions of other dates but probaly closer to 500,000 than 115,000.

What I find interesting is contemporary researchers offering educated opinions as fact when they are not.The 1930 penny was extensively rearched in the 1960's yet that Info. is disregarded in many cases.



Modern theories that the 1930 Penny was released into circulation in 1930/31 is just ridiculous,it would have been ID in a heartbeat by Dealers/Collectors.

Again,i find it interesting contemporary Coin 'experts' quoting Aust. pre-Dec. Mintage figures as fact,they are a guide/estimate only and should be treated as such.

Edited by Basil
12/03/2022 5:56 pm
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