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 Replies: 17 / Views: 731 |
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Forum Dad
 United States
22809 Posts |
Why not? Did they not go through any upsetting process? What gives?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2910 Posts |
Are rims required for coins with incuse design elements?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
81268 Posts |
I don't think any of these (or the quarter eagles) have rims, as I recall.
Edited by Coinfrog
09/14/2023 5:25 pm
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Forum Dad
Topic StarterUnited States
22809 Posts |
I know they don't. But why not? And why don't they.
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Forum Dad
Topic StarterUnited States
22809 Posts |
Did they just forgo the upsetting process altogether?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9851 Posts |
Rims are raised in coins with designs elevated above the fields because otherwise, the design would be pressing onto flat surfaces directly when laying on flat or not so flat surfaces.
Many ancient Greek coins had this issue where the design was elevated high above the fields and had no raised rim. This exposed the coins' design to rub and wear unnecessarily. The raised rim remedied this issue and also allowed coins to stack properly.
In the Indian head half and quarter eagles, the entire design is below the level of the fields, except for the mintmark which is raised in some branch mint issues and incuse in others.
The concept of the incuse design was the idea of Boston physician William Sturgis Bigelow, who was a friend of President Teddy Roosevelt. Bigelow got the novel idea from Egyptian reliefs in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. Roosevelt liked the idea and fought for the new design in the face of criticism.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9851 Posts |
This is my Athena owl tetradrachm which shows the head of Athena prominently above the fields with no rim to protect the design. The coin would wear quickly and forget about stacking this coin. The reverse owl is incuse and the part that was not punched or hammered in protects the incuse design and there is no need for an upset rim. Same principle for the indian half and quarter eagle but it is easier to see the concept in the exaggerated example of the ancient Greek coinage.   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS My coin e-commerce website: https://fairfaxcoins.comLet me build your coin e-commerce website: https://fairfaxcoins.com/ur-site/ |
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Forum Dad
Topic StarterUnited States
22809 Posts |
So there was no upset mill of any kind used on these coins?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9851 Posts |
There was no need.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS My coin e-commerce website: https://fairfaxcoins.comLet me build your coin e-commerce website: https://fairfaxcoins.com/ur-site/ |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
81268 Posts |
Correct - these two incuse issues had no rim when minted.
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Forum Dad
Topic StarterUnited States
22809 Posts |
Here's why I ask. I'm in an argument on FB where a guy says the below coin is off-center. A fair amount say it's a partial collar uncentered broadstrike, but not off-center because no design is missing. His reply to that was "too often in evaluating errors like this we forget that the rim is part of the design engraved into the dies. As you can clearly see part of the rim design is missing over the edge."Sure, there's a gutter on the die that contains the protorim that's already there from the upset mill, but it's surely not part of the "design." When I said that to him he threw up a picture of a half eagle and said "then why isn't there a rim on this coin? Because a rim isn't part of the design on the dies of the Indian Quarter Eagle. It IS part of the design where it appears on a coin. Like a Washington quarter."I said likely because the design was incused so they used no type of upsetting mill first. Am I nuts?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9851 Posts |
I don't agree that the rim was part of the design engraved onto the die. As you can see in this off center strike, there is no evidence of the rim design in the impression.  |
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Forum Dad
Topic StarterUnited States
22809 Posts |
Thanks numismatic student. I posted your pic with some arrows added asking Where's the rim? last night around 11:30 and woke up this morning and saw he deleted all his posts, looks like I was talking to myself now.   |
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Moderator
United States
51615 Posts |
On the owl coin, couldn't the four raised edges be considered a raised rim? Just stirring the pot  John1  ( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 6.5 +/- Million Cents Since 1971
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Moderator
United States
128232 Posts |
Quote:
I posted your pic with some arrows added asking Where's the rim? last night around 11:30 and woke up this morning and saw he deleted all his posts, looks like I was talking to myself now. Well done. 
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Pillar of the Community
United States
9851 Posts |
Glad it worked out. I have never seen any teeth in the rims of any State Quarter but I'm not a State Quarter expert. @John1 - It certainly appears that way. I think if I was living in the ancient world, one of the issues I would see with the incuse design is that people might try to put gun gunk in the incuse crevices to increase the weight of the coin, as value was much more tied to the weight of the metal object. That may be a greater concern than wear for the coin. I figure people were just as opportunistic in the ancient world as they are now. |
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Replies: 17 / Views: 731 |
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Posted 09/14/2023 5:23 pm
