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 Replies: 17 / Views: 1,718 |
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Forum Dad
 United States
24148 Posts |
Why not? Did they not go through any upsetting process? What gives?  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3468 Posts |
Are rims required for coins with incuse design elements?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
I don't think any of these (or the quarter eagles) have rims, as I recall.
Edited by Coinfrog
09/14/2023 5:25 pm
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Forum Dad
 United States
24148 Posts |
I know they don't. But why not? And why don't they.
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Forum Dad
United States
24148 Posts |
Did they just forgo the upsetting process altogether?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Rims are raised in coins with designs elevated above the fields because otherwise, the design would be pressing onto flat surfaces directly when laying on flat or not so flat surfaces.
Many ancient Greek coins had this issue where the design was elevated high above the fields and had no raised rim. This exposed the coins' design to rub and wear unnecessarily. The raised rim remedied this issue and also allowed coins to stack properly.
In the Indian head half and quarter eagles, the entire design is below the level of the fields, except for the mintmark which is raised in some branch mint issues and incuse in others.
The concept of the incuse design was the idea of Boston physician William Sturgis Bigelow, who was a friend of President Teddy Roosevelt. Bigelow got the novel idea from Egyptian reliefs in the Boston Museum of Fine Arts. Roosevelt liked the idea and fought for the new design in the face of criticism.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
This is my Athena owl tetradrachm which shows the head of Athena prominently above the fields with no rim to protect the design. The coin would wear quickly and forget about stacking this coin. The reverse owl is incuse and the part that was not punched or hammered in protects the incuse design and there is no need for an upset rim. Same principle for the indian half and quarter eagle but it is easier to see the concept in the exaggerated example of the ancient Greek coinage.   IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Forum Dad
United States
24148 Posts |
So there was no upset mill of any kind used on these coins?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
There was no need.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Correct - these two incuse issues had no rim when minted.
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Forum Dad
United States
24148 Posts |
Here's why I ask. I'm in an argument on FB where a guy says the below coin is off-center. A fair amount say it's a partial collar uncentered broadstrike, but not off-center because no design is missing. His reply to that was "too often in evaluating errors like this we forget that the rim is part of the design engraved into the dies. As you can clearly see part of the rim design is missing over the edge."Sure, there's a gutter on the die that contains the protorim that's already there from the upset mill, but it's surely not part of the "design." When I said that to him he threw up a picture of a half eagle and said "then why isn't there a rim on this coin? Because a rim isn't part of the design on the dies of the Indian Quarter Eagle. It IS part of the design where it appears on a coin. Like a Washington quarter."I said likely because the design was incused so they used no type of upsetting mill first. Am I nuts?  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
I don't agree that the rim was part of the design engraved onto the die. As you can see in this off center strike, there is no evidence of the rim design in the impression.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Forum Dad
United States
24148 Posts |
Thanks numismatic student. I posted your pic with some arrows added asking Where's the rim? last night around 11:30 and woke up this morning and saw he deleted all his posts, looks like I was talking to myself now.   |
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Moderator
United States
56855 Posts |
On the owl coin, couldn't the four raised edges be considered a raised rim? Just stirring the pot  John1  |
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Moderator
United States
187634 Posts |
Quote:
I posted your pic with some arrows added asking Where's the rim? last night around 11:30 and woke up this morning and saw he deleted all his posts, looks like I was talking to myself now. Well done.  |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11880 Posts |
Glad it worked out. I have never seen any teeth in the rims of any State Quarter but I'm not a State Quarter expert. @John1 - It certainly appears that way. I think if I was living in the ancient world, one of the issues I would see with the incuse design is that people might try to put gun gunk in the incuse crevices to increase the weight of the coin, as value was much more tied to the weight of the metal object. That may be a greater concern than wear for the coin. I figure people were just as opportunistic in the ancient world as they are now. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Replies: 17 / Views: 1,718 |
Posted 09/14/2023 5:23 pm
