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 Replies: 14 / Views: 724 |
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Valued Member
United States
92 Posts |
A recent thread reminded me of something I had seen while sorting through a collection of odds and ends coins, medals and tokens. Upon further review, the testone below would seem to be some sort of replica. But replica of what exactly? It is similar to genuine examples on Numista but not exact. Is that how replicas of these were made, as in with a little bit of creative license thrown in to the engraver or is there something else here I'm missing (which wouldn't be for the first time).   |
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Moderator
 United States
32884 Posts |
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Valued Member
 United States
92 Posts |
Agreed! So is mine a replica and if so, of what? Or is it a variant of the testone at Numista? Or some replica variant?
Edited by jdsstrat
03/09/2025 9:17 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
6952 Posts |
There were a lot of die variants for this type. What is the weight? Added: Looks like a match to Muntoni 10, which has the same decorations obverse (long tassels at sides of the coat of arms, shell decoration at top), and the exact same punctuation: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=12844823That makes it a variant of the type pictured in Numista. Edited by tdziemia
03/09/2025 9:17 pm
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Valued Member
United States
92 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6952 Posts |
I think we were writing at the same time ...
How accurate is your scale?
I can find examples of this broad type ranging from 9.13 to 9.67 grams, with the majority of samples in the 9.4 tp 9.6 gram range.
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Valued Member
United States
92 Posts |
Not very accurate at all, I am afraid. On the brighter side, in my experience using it for cooking it tends to come up less than more than greater than. I have been sorting through a collection of stamps that I inherited, now the coins. Stamps first then the coins. I am really winging it here. Edited by jdsstrat
03/09/2025 10:24 pm
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Valued Member
United States
92 Posts |
And BTW: Thank you for engaging with me here. You must have access to incredible resources. Thank you for sharing! The link you sent is a definite match, down to the wider rim in the same place.
Edited by jdsstrat
03/09/2025 10:13 pm
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Valued Member
United States
92 Posts |
Spence, doesn't mine look a little more like this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces117964.htmlThe slightly different details can be explained by the variants that existed for this coin, as much as 11 if I understand it all correctly. The silver content also seems to change with the variants which when added to the possible age of the coin here could account for the different shades of gray for the subtly different coins in the pictures. Wouldn't you agree? |
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Valued Member
United States
92 Posts |
Once again, thank you to this forum for its collective wisdom and guidance. I said it before but it bears repeating: this forum rocks!
Below is the response I got from Numismatica Ars Classica NAC AG in London:
"Thank you very much for contacting us and for the images provided. I have consulted our experts and the coin is a fairly common testone. Your piece has a star at the bottom on the reverse while the rarer types bear the Martelli-Ubertini coat of arms.
Unfortunately, unless they are in an excellent condition, these testoni do not fetch more than a few hundred euros, your piece would probably be worth something in the region of €500."
Not bad for a "replica."
Edited by jdsstrat
03/10/2025 10:29 am
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Moderator
United States
32884 Posts |
Ok good to know and thx for following up with this new information @jds. It is interesting to me that the silver content could vary by so much seemingly among issues without having had an effect on their use in commerce.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6952 Posts |
Quote:
Spence, doesn't mine look a little more like this: I also missed that Numista had the variety with the more ornate decoration around the shield obverse. Shame on me since I've been spending a lot of time in the Papal States section over there recently. I am not completely sure what differentiates Muntoni 9 from Muntoni 10 since I don't have that catalog. My guess is the form of the star on the reverse. Quote:
The silver content also seems to change with the variants I don't think the specification varied. The NGC website has them all at 9.596 grams and 0.916 (probably 11/12 pure). Sometimes NGC makes mistakes, but I agree there wouldn't be any reason to change the specification for what looks like just minor design changes or die vareties. The Numista system can lead to some confusion on the standard weight for older coins. When a listing is created, the creator can use the specified weight if it's known, or the weight of the coin used for the photo and description. And jds, bravo for contacting Numismatica Ars. They graded the coin in that link as EF+, and it sold for 800 euro despite some reverse planchet defects. My guess is yours would grade a step lower, maybe VF+ (the photos are a bit blurry and I'm not the best grade guesser), consistent with their advice on the value.
Edited by tdziemia
03/11/2025 09:13 am
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Valued Member
United States
92 Posts |
Quote:
I am not completely sure what differentiates Muntoni 9 from Muntoni 10 I am going out on a limb here to say that the difference between Muntoni 9 and 10 is the placement of the crossed swords and scabbards near the top of the obverse. That's what I'm seeing, anyway. The other thing I want to add is that, tdziemia, I have only you to thank for putting me on the trail of Numismatica Ars . It is the only reason I reached out to them. That said, when I look at the acsearch archive I see only one example of the obverse like mine, the one your linked to. Yes, mine has the more common star on the reverse (as the Numismatica Ars representative pointed out), but even at the Ars own archive they list more examples with the coat of arms on the reverse than the Muntoni 10 obverse I differenciated above. Thoughts?
Edited by jdsstrat
03/11/2025 12:33 pm
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New Member
United States
38 Posts |
Is it me but it doesn't look silver in the pics. There are always some variants in the Papal and Italian issues. Catalogs rarely have them all
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6952 Posts |
It doesn't look silver, but neither does this: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces117964.html I'm no photography expert, but I've taken a lot of photos of coins and know some of the photos come out with different color than the coin looks in hand. Silver in particular can look whitish, grayish, yellow-gray to brown-gray to purple-gray, to nearly black. Yes, the catalogs all differ. I don't have Muntoni or Berman, but one can infer plenty from what the auction houses cite. So, my opinions: - KM is worst. They miss a lot, they make mistakes ... - CNI is thorough on documenting every possible variant, but are not so good on grouping them into reasonable subtypes, which is what most of us need. - Berman seems to be close to KM on "granularity" but with much better accuracy - Muntoni seems to strike best balance between main types and subtypes/variants in most cases. Edited by tdziemia
03/11/2025 10:26 pm
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Replies: 14 / Views: 724 |
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Posted 03/09/2025 7:40 pm
