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 Replies: 35 / Views: 4,846 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5619 Posts |
I have been doing some die state studies on the B1 Reverse, I have come to see some very interesting details. I have found that speaking to another Vammer on this site, among others, that the REAL VAM 84 might be a rarity compared to the 84A as I was told, Since that statement I have "put the word out" about the findings I have found about the 84's having some remnants of the 84A clashing, whether it was a faint letter E transfer, some cotton boll remnants, the lip clash or any of the other known clashing marks the 84A is known for. I have recently accquired a slabbed ANACS VAM 84 MS-64 7 TF coin, purchased from photos and was looking to upgrade my 84 from 63, once I received the coin in hand and did a stereo-microscope inspection, I was amazed at my findings, I found the slab labeled VAM 84 had a faint Letter E transfer, cotton bolls over the arrow heads(faint) but there, and remnants of Anna's hair behind the eagles head from the obverse also. I am not sure if all 84's have these attributes in some form or less or some form or more, or the slab was mislabeled  , I from the feelers placed out to fellow Vammers am told this topic is an interesting one in that some very seasoned VAM hunters have not addressed this topic and I am told while it is an interesting observation, THEY were simply not sure about the findings and the comparison between all concerned began, the results are as such, to some extent the clashing took place at an apparent early stage for this die marriage state and I am asking those who collect the B1 Reverse type sets to look at their 84 and 84A'S and please confir or add to this topic, I have about 7- 84 and 84a's combined and my inspections show some form of the clash whether placed on the label as a 84 or 84A, much thanks in advance, Mike.....  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I'll try to find mine, it is very possible its similar to the 1883-0 VAM 36A/36 story, my meaning is the 1883-0 VAM 36 has no clashing anywhere, the VAM 36 has lots of clashing with the E letter transfer...However it was polished down at some time and the E and some features disappeared, reverting it back to a VAM 36 as there was no longer any letter transfer..yet the tell tail sign or PUP for a E transfer is still visable,,the clash just above and to the left of the cap... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
I have both a 1878-P VAM 84 PCGS MS 63 DMPL and a 1878-P VAM 84-A (Clashed E) in PCGS MS 64. It appears from a full photo on the VAM site that VAM 84 and comparison of my own that VAM 84 comes in a clashed and non-clashed state. My VAM 84 shows clashing on the lips on the obverse and remnants of the cotton bolls (behind the arrow head.) There is no clashed E discernible. Also the D of dollar on the reverse is weak. In discussion with other vammers our conclusion was this: VAM 84, then a clash episode which made VAM 84-A clashed E, coin then polished up which made for the DMPL on my coin with remnants of clashing remaining which became a 'reverted' VAM 84. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
I will snap some pictures of my original VAN-84 I purchased before I even knew what the term VAM meant in a few minutes and post up some pictures. morgansddad, did you get the ANACS VAM-84 from teletrade? I saw one on there in MS-64 but went a lil higher than I expected./ Another thing it was in a old white ANACS holder and may have been slabbed before the 84A was found to be different |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5619 Posts |
Bryan, I DID NOT obtain the coin from T/T also it is in their yellowish slab.PS, I would appreciate those photos....
Terry, I appreciate your input, as usual, REVERTED, seems to be a very descriptive word for this coins state, Thanks again.......
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5619 Posts |
Bryan, Above and behind the top arrow, it appears to be something near the left leg, cotton boll remnants? I see no other indication of any clashing, I am still amazed this was your 1st B1 Reverse purchase and it is an apparent 84, possible 84A at some time, possible? In any event I am going to have to agree with your comment some time ago, the VAM 84 is rarer than the 84A by a long shot.........Thanks for the photos and your input! |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
yeah I think the clashing happened very early in the dies life and there are way more 84a's than there are regular 84's out there in my experience looking. Here are some pictures of the area beside both legs   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5619 Posts |
Bryan Thanks for the follow up, as I stated earlier, you are absolutely correct in that the 84, in all it's crisp, clear, non clashed glory, is a rarity for sure, in my opinion.......
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
Technically if the clashed version of 1878-P VAM 84 were sent off to Leroy Van Allen, he might classify it as VAM 84-A die 2 E removed. 1878-P VAM 84-A with clashed E would become VAM 84-A die 1 Clashed E. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5619 Posts |
Terry, lets be clear, so what you are actually saying is the die # 1 was the clashed version, clashed on the 1st strike, so called the die #1, and if so, then you are saying the die#2 would of been the clashed version with the "letter E " removed, but not the other remnants of the clash being those areas are harder to remove, and finally then where would the VAM 84 no clash be in all this technical jargon, I am told the coin, in it's original normal die state exists! |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
No. Here is the sequence: Original VAM 84 that is not clashed. This stays VAM 84. Then there is a clash episode and VAM 84 that is now clashed with Letter transfer. This is listed as VAM 84-A clashed E. Then the dies were removed and cleaned up with the letter transfer (in this case the letter E being removed). However remnants of this clash episode remain. Leroy **might** designate this reverted VAM 84 as VAM 84-A die # 2 clashed with No letter transfer. If he does so, VAM 84-A with letter transfer would be designated die # 1 clashed E. My point here is that both would technically be VAM 84-A. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5619 Posts |
Seeking a VAM 84 in Mint State DMPL-64 Please, Anacs, Ngc, or David Halls company, LOL... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
They keep changing the rules, if the original die is polished up and becomes noted for being a NEW DIE now this will once again be applied to all dates and how many new revisions will this effect? tooooo many and its hard to keep up with the new revisions and does one need to RESUBMIT these coins to keep up with the revision game?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
at least most of the TPG's didn't buy into the 84A game anyway because if stuff keeps changing they will remove them from their variety list they attribute just because they can't keep up with the ever changing rules |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5619 Posts |
I am not sure I am understanding your comment Bryan, In my opinion, the VAM 84A is a clearly legitimate VAM and I am not sure of what you are speaking about when you say the " 84A game"........I know some TPG's do not recognize it, for some reason, in their registry sets, why, I do not have a clue, I hope certain powers to be and their published guides and lists are not the root of this topic!! |
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Replies: 35 / Views: 4,846 |
Posted 03/20/2011 10:15 pm
