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That's Not An American Ship... (Updated And Corrected)

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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16816 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  08:31 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
...even though it sort-of looks like one.

In my slow trawl through my collection updating my database, I came upon this coin:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
Saint Helena 25 pence 1973, issued to commemorate 300 years of British occupation.

I looked at it, thought "Hmm. Nice ship. And flags, too. Two of my minor collecting themes in one coin."... and then took a second look. What is that flag she's flying at the stern? St Helena is a British colony, and has been for a while (celebrating this fact was, after all, the whole point of making this coin). But that flag looks distinctly stripey. Here's a closer look:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
So what's going on, here? It looks for all the world like an American flag with the English white ensign where the stars ought to be - or maybe the Greek flag:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
But neither of those flags were in use in 1673 when this ship presumably sailed.

The coin was designed by Leslie Durbin, one of Britain's most prominent coin designers and silversmiths of the 20th century and maker of ceremonial regalia for church and state, so I think we can rule out incompetence, laziness or closet Republicanism. If the flag is striped, then it meant to be striped, and it means something other than the US of A.

The answer, which eventually occurred to me? It's Petra-Sancta blue.

If you don't know what that means, let me explain. Back in the middle ages, a fellow named Petra-Sancta devised a system to allow objects which were normally brightly coloured (such as flags and coats of arms) to be illustrated on things which normally weren't coloured (like printing, coins and sculpture). Here's the system he devised, as depicted by Encyclopaedia Britannica; you can find a similar illustration at the front of the old Craig catalogue of world coins (a feature sadly lacking from today's Krauses).

So, if you wanted to "colour" part of a coin yellow, you'd fill it with dots - and everyone who needed to know would know that it was supposed to be "yellow". Horizontal stripes mean "blue". In this modern age, hardly any coin designers use or even know about the Petra-Sancta system; it seems to have mostly gone out of fashion after World War I. But Leslie Durbin obviously still used it.

So our mystery flag is merely the English blue naval ensign. Pre-1701, it looked like this:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
which exactly matches what we see on the ship on this coin. So, thumbs up to Mr Durbin for his attention to detail, even in the unlikeliest of places.

(flag illustrations are snitched from Wikipedia)
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Edited by Sap
12/24/2006 07:34 am
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
if its got an American flag on it we claim it
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Morgan Fred's Avatar
United States
2684 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  10:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgan Fred to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess I can't call myself "old" yet. I'm still learning new things every day!

Sap, thanks for a fascinating lesson!

Fred
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toast's Avatar
Australia
1091 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add toast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow, what a fascinating system of designs to represent color. I would never had guessed that that was the flag portrayed. A surprise and an education all from one coin.

So, what colors are the other four small flags on the ship?
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Silver Dollar's Avatar
United States
287 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  4:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver Dollar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sap, Thanks for the information. Always ready and willing to learn and today you taught me something very unique.
Thanks again for the insight.
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RenaL's Avatar
Turkey
1205 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RenaL to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the info. Really interesting.

However, I don't see the point in using that system on coins.
It gets things confused:)
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toast's Avatar
Australia
1091 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  6:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add toast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
BTW, Is it an actual ship being deplicted on the coin? If so, did you find out the name of the ship?
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Australia
3831 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2006  12:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gxseries to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a very nice one. Thanks for the infomation.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseries
My numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htm
Regularly updated at least once a month.
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triggersmob's Avatar
Australia
9384 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2006  05:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add triggersmob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
They say you learn something new every day. Well I just learnt my something for today. Thanks Sap.

Steve
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16816 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2006  07:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by toast
So, what colors are the other four small flags on the ship?

two are striped (mizzenmast and bowsprit), the one on the mainmast is the English flag (cross of St George) and the other (foremast) is either plain or indecipherable.

quote:
Originally posted by toast
BTW, Is it an actual ship being deplicted on the coin? If so, did you find out the name of the ship?

Toast's questions prompted me to do a bit more research... and I found I may well have been mistaken in my conclusions.

Toasts' question about the ship set me researching more into the history of the capture of St Helena. The commander of the English fleet was one Captain Richard Munden. His ship at the time was either the Princess, a 3rd rate ship of the line, 54 guns, or the Assistance, a slightly smaller ship. I was thinking this may be his ship.

However, I then googled the coin itself. I find on the Chard Coins website that Leslie Durbin chose to portray "a vessel of the type used by the East India Company at the time", rather than a Navy ship - St Helena was placed under Company control once the invasion was complete and the political situation settled down. Curious, I checked what the Company flag would have looked like at the time. Lo and behold, it looks like this:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
Stripes! If that website is correct (and there's no reason to doubt it - they're presumably copying off some kind of information card released with the coin), then it looks like this is a much better candidate for our flag and ship...

So it's most likely not a British Navy battleship, rather a Company armed merchantman. And the flag doesn't show Petra-Sancta blue after all, but real stripes. Ah well.

It's still not an American ship... though why the American Revolutionaries would choose a naval flag so closely matching the one used on British merchant ships is a mystery to me. Here's what the Company flag looked like in 1776:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected

To conclude my lengthy and embarrassing post with a couple of coins that really do illustrate the Petra-Sancta system of colour (just to prove I'm not talking through my hat ). First, here's the coat of arms off a British halfcrown of 1887:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
In this instance, the coat of arms is: English lions (top left and bottom right quarters) red background, Scottish lion (top right) yellow background and Irish harp (bottom left) blue background.
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected

And here's a more modern coin, with coloured flags:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
Rwanda 5 francs 1964. As you can see, the flag of Rwanda at the time was red, yellow and green:
That's-Not-An-American-Ship...-Updated-And-Corrected
later Rwandan coins actually have a "colour error" - one of the flags is shown red, yellow and purple!
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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toast's Avatar
Australia
1091 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2006  07:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add toast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Sap for your answer to my questions. Now I've learnt twice as much as I had before. I'll have to learn to do research on coins as you do. It's amazing what you have discovered!
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kuhli's Avatar
United States
230 Posts
 Posted 12/24/2006  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuhli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Sap
The coin was designed by Leslie Durbin, one of Britain's most prominent coin designers and silversmiths of the 20th century and maker of ceremonial regalia for church and state, so I think we can rule out incompetence, laziness or closet Republicanism. If the flag is striped, then it meant to be striped, and it means something other than the US of A.
(flag illustrations are snitched from Wikipedia)



Mr. Durbin also designed many UK decimal coin designs, including the "coronet" types of £1 coins (issued 1984-1987, 1989-1992), 1994 £2 Bank of England commemorative, and the 1990 £5 Queen Mothers' 90th Birthday commemorative crown.
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