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Can You Get Sap's Goat?

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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16816 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2011  09:21 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I've asked several ancients experts before, including some knowledgeable coin club members and the folks over at FORVM, and never really gotten a definitive answer on this one. Now that there seems to be a critical mass of ancients folks here on CCF, I'll ask here, too.

It's a tiny silver coin, about 12 mm diameter, 1.97 grams weight, with a janiform male-female head on the obverse and a goat on the reverse. There's no inscription or legend on either side, though if you stare at the lumps and bumps in the reverse field for long enough, you start to see things that aren't there.

Can-You-Get-Sap's-Goat? Can-You-Get-Sap's-Goat?

Can-You-Get-Sap's-Goat?

I bought it from a local coin auction house here in Brisbane way back in 1998. The company doesn't handle too many ancients and the lot description was vague: "Small Greek fractional coin, silver, Obv Janus, Rev. Goat". I was the only bidder and acquired it for $25 plus the juice.

In those pre-Internet days, I had few resources. After searching in vain through numerous catalogues (including the entire University of Queensland copy of BMC ), I learned a lot about ancient Greek coinages but found nothing resembling this; I came to the conclusion that it's some kind of pseudo-ancient fantasy.

However, someone over on FORVM pointed out that there were several unattributed silver coins from somewhere in Cilicia that matched some of the characteristics, and found some similar-looking coins on CoinArchives (unfortunately, those links are now long-dead). At that weight, if it's from that area it should be a diobol. The closest thing on Wildwinds is this hemiobol.

There's enough doubt to prevent me from casting it definitively into the Fantasy bag, but not enough certainty for it to sit comfortably in the Genuine album, either.

So, anyone have any ideas?
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Gil-galad's Avatar
United States
2044 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2011  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Gil-galad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I know I've seen a Greek coin or two that has two faces on the obverse, similar to yours but I just can't remember where I saw it. Not sure about the goat though.

Unfortunately, I cannot help but if the coin is real, then it might have to go in the unattributable section. lol
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BluesZone's Avatar
United States
524 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2011  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BluesZone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How about this SAP?

Janus heads and goats, Ar "Obol"
Obv:- Bearded janiform head
Rev:- Goat standing right
Fig 3 is the false coin - 1.00g

Offered to a Greek collector as coming from a hoard in centre or northern Greece.

Die matched to Av coins offered to Bank Leu from Greece in the 1950s and were placed straight into the forgery trays, more as a curiosity than a warning.
Published in the IAPN BOC Vol 14, No. 1 in 1989 - example 3
Image used with permission of IAPN

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/fa...m=10&pos=842






Can-You-Get-Sap's-Goat?

Can-You-Get-Sap's-Goat?
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Bing's Avatar
United States
4253 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2011  10:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm so glad you found that BLUESZONE. I had no idea where to look and I so wanted to help SAP out with this. He has been very helpful to all of us on this discussion board so I wanted to return the favor. Hopefully this answers his questions.

Regards,

JW
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BluesZone's Avatar
United States
524 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2011  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BluesZone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Two things.
1.I put the wrong single pic up, I think Sap's coin is #5
2.I know nothing about Greek coins, I don't even own one but I am good at Google search.
goat coin--no
ancient goat coin--no
ancient goat coin two faces--hint on similar Janus coin with two faces
Janus goat coin--bingo
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16816 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2011  6:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent work. I'd tried both FORVM's fake database and Google back in 2006, and had no luck then; I never thought to try again.

While mine is double the weight of the "obols" pictured, I'd agree the dies are the same. That's enough for me to remove the last shreds of doubt - it's a fake. Back into the black bag it goes.

The triple-headed "gold half-stater" (#2 in the IAPN picture) is actually copied off one of the "unattributed Cilician" coins, the type off Wildwinds I linked to above. But it looks like the 1950s fakemakers took the dies from two different fake gold coins of theirs to make these silver "fantasy mules".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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BluesZone's Avatar
United States
524 Posts
 Posted 12/20/2011  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BluesZone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Atleast it's still silver. Not $25 worth but not a total loss.
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