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Same Mintmark, Different Attribution

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Bing's Avatar
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 Posted 01/30/2012  3:57 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have these two Constantius II Fel Temp Fallen Horseman coins with the same mintmark, but I attributed them differently. First, I am not 100 % positive I have them right, but, secondly, what attribution would you assign and why?

Same-Mintmark,-Different-Attribution

Same-Mintmark,-Different-Attribution
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 01/30/2012  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My track record has been bad lately as far as attribing goes. But I make them to be Siscia 369. There is a slight difference in the style of the horsemans helmet. Could that be why you get two different numbers?
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 Posted 01/30/2012  4:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great looking coins both of them. Nothing to add on attribution
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 Posted 01/30/2012  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But I make them to be Siscia 369


Wow! That's much different from my attributions. I think the "hat" is the same for both, so I didn't make a distinction for that. The difference I see is the circle (globe) at the left foot on the Roman soldier in the second coin. RIC 369 has an M in the left field where neither of these do. I also think the mintmark is A or Delta SIS zigzag, not B.
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 01/30/2012  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As I said my track record hasn't been good lately. Now I see what you are talking about, looks like a shield that he is stepping on. First one without the M should be 361, haven't been able to fine the second one.
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 Posted 01/30/2012  7:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is the lower coin ever so slightly larger diameter than the upper? It strikes me as an RIC 352 page 375. RIC does not mention the omission of the shield on 361-367 but my example of 361 lacks a shield but has a lump under the foot as if the soldier were standing on something not clearly defined. The difference between these numbers is mostly whether they were issued while Constantius Gallus lived or after he was replaced by Julian. RIC gives them the same weight but a larger diameter expected of the Gallus period issues. There are coins that are hard to separate with certainty but if you had a hundred mixed coins of the three rulers it might be more obvious which Constantius II possibly went with which Caesar based on 'fabric'. People who write RIC have access to such groups of coins but we do not.

Any time you get a question on horsemen, I suggest looking over Dane Kurth's coins and see if you see a clue. After you look and fail, I see nothing wrong with sending her an email with a specific question. Looking at her coins, the one with a clear, round shield is listed as a 361 (the opposite of my guess). If the question were mine, I'd ask. She is usually quite nice and helpful. Who knows, you might get another coin on Wildwinds.
http://www.catbikes.ch/helvetica/ft-siscia.htm
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 Posted 01/30/2012  10:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry. I've been out all evening and am just now getting back to the forum. Doug, I have attributed the two coins as you did, RIC 352 and 361. The RIC 361 is 19mm while the 352 is 17mm. I did look at Dane's coins on Helvetica and came away with the question I posed here. So perhaps you are right. I will write to Dane and see what insight she might be able to provide on these two coins.

Thanks DVC and Echizento for your input and comments. I'll let everyone know if Dane provides information.
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 Posted 02/01/2012  09:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bing to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I heard back from Dane and she doesn't think there is anything about either coin to distinguish either:

"Well, when you consider the number of these Fel Temps
that were issued, especially from Siscia, they must
have gone through a heck of a lot of dies.
I think the soldiers foot is on a small shield but it
is practically invisible because of the O of REPARATIO.
Maybe he made the figure of the soldier nice and large
not realising that the legend had to be added and that
he would have to add a very small shield.
These saggy wreath ties and weird long face, as well as
the often huge point on the Phrygian helmet, are so
typical of Siscia, so there is no question of this
being a barb or something. I wonder how many dies they went through ? I have over 1,700 Fel Temps and not a single die-match from any mint."

Now I'm on a mission to see if I can find any die matches. It may be impossible, but it's something to watch for.
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echizento's Avatar
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 Posted 02/01/2012  4:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is one of Constantius Gallus I just came across from my collection. It has the similar shield as yours. no mint mark visable so I don't know the RIC #.

Same-Mintmark,-Different-Attribution

Same-Mintmark,-Different-Attribution
Edited by echizento
02/01/2012 4:51 pm
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 Posted 02/02/2012  07:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dougsmit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am amazed that Dane has no die matches but I suppose the huge number of coins makes this believable. For comparison my collection of Eastern mint Septimius Severus denarii has something approaching a third of the coins involved in a die match. There are coins known from only one die set so every specimen is a die match. This makes zero out of 1700 quite a statistic.
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