Cast 8 Reales ?

There was a discussion about this one on Facebook, everyone agreed that it was a cast of a striked coin - made to deceive collectors.
Using casting, it's way easier to copy the cast type IMHO.

I wonder who can bid on this with over 1000 ratings ... (nope, it's not our Swamperbob - and anyway it would be too expensive for what seems to be a quite modern fake)

Absolutely, or at least rather large.



Prolly 40/60.

eeooowwhh.uuuhhh

sorry can't spell that

link is old not workingthat's OK

I mean in high school we cast aluminum ash trays that made more sense, without the fantasy doubling. The bow I do not understand

MathieuMa
Thank You
Lot of oror
anyway bids are up soooo...

but IMHO it is just not pretty
CC or no

swamperbob's position/outlook makes most sense (to me allwaysHappy if you haven't spent too much)

Yes biggfredd I have one of the extra high % 8Reales my Chinese supplier said it was extra big so I could see details better

Wrote this letter to Dan Sedwick recently:


Dan -


See the enclosed cast piece. Yes its cast but lets look at its EXACT composition:

Analysis was performed by a Ametek Spectro Midex ED-XRF Analyzer. See my company website at this website: http://www.edax.com. ED-XRF results is an intra-atomic phenomenon where, under incident X-Rays, inner shell electrons are ejected. The vacant electron state is then filled by an electron from an outer shell with the emission of X-Rays that have energies specific for the electron energy levels that are indicative of the nature of the metallic elements being sought after - as in this specimen you are viewing. In other words XRF machines work by producing an X-ray that excites atoms on the surface of the object, in order to stabilize themselves these atoms then release energy which can be detected by the machine. Each element produces energy with a different wavelength, thus allowing the machine to tell them apart. The machine also counts each instance of energy being released for each element, thereby producing a spectrum with peaks whose size are dependant on the quantity of each element present. This can then be converted into percentage values for the composition of the object.



XRF Analysis yielded: Silver (81.6%), Copper (17.14%), Iron (0.35%), Lead (0.3%), Platinum (0.09%), Nickel (0.02%), Gold (0.07%), Zinc (0.06%), Bismuth (0.04%), Arsenic (0.04%), Indium (0.03%), Mercury (0.02%), Yttrium (0.02%) & Iridium (0.006%).



This is what is called debased silver with the usual substituted alloy for silver being copper or zinc. I do not consider this a contemporary counterfeit of the period. To me this smells like an emergency money specimen being a Klippe and when and where and why these Klippe's were struck. Note the significant amounts of trace elements including gold and indium which are diagnostic elements in early silver in trace amounts. See Paul Craddock's work at the British Museum with XRF.



Simply put ... at times KLIPPES were cast with lower silver amounts or possibly at regal level amounts of silver. I have not analyzed silver struck Klippe's with XRF analysis before so I do not know their normal silver levels. The silver alloy analyzed here is homogenous with other silver alloys from this period for 8 Reales in terms of major/minor constituents.



John Lorenzo

Numismatist

United States

John - To me it looks like a simple modern counterfeit. Someplace, I have some rather similar cast Klippe coins that came from the Virgil Hancock estate. Perhaps a test of these coins would confirm that in the 1970's that forgers were using old silver to fabricate Numismatic Forgeries. I will send them to you along with the portrait Modern Counterfeits you requested - if I can locate them in the next few days.

I do have some of the Chihuahua casts and a few silver suds that might be interesting as well. They are likely in the bank but I will hunt them out.

The extreme top. The top 10 micrometers. I am aware of the silver surface enrichment process as investigated by L. Beck in 2004. But its irrelevant here since these are not typical modern casts but probably very early 20thC or late 19thC in my opinion based on the assay and very well made by melting down legitimate 8R and then placing this fluid into a cast mold ... so it seems from Pradeau ... since he has these exact coins plated in his 1938 work ... so these seem at least this old. But I am not an expert in Mexican Coins. My only expertise prior to the CC8R's was the Kleeberg Counterfeit 2 Reales. One thing is for certain when people use the word cast ... it can mean different things other than just a "bad" word. I always appreciated casts from the English halfpence & farthings contemporaries imported into the US colonies prior to the U.S. Mint starting in 1792. Anyway ... these are probably modern as defined above ... but I still have doubts ... I only own two cast Klippes (1733 & 1734) ... the other read 53% silver ... again a debased silver alloy type with copper high and gold and indium in trace. I am purchasing a third ... just for curiosity ... I am asking myself ... GEE! ... these guys are GOOD! They sure went to a lot of trouble adding copper and making these assays read like 1700/1800 pieces - EXACTLY. Personally ... I have never seen casts ... SO WELL MADE ... to these early 8R's. It's these minor constituents that are bothering me. If they just melted 8R's ... would not surface enrichment process yield Ag values in the 95-98% range with these casts as is the case when I analyze the regal 8R's at 90% Ag. Fred ... in my opinion this is unexplored territory ... how early did numismatists first spot these cast Klippes? Pradeau is correct in his argument - no documentation of casts. Production levels were strong with the struck issues and their population was higher than the previous two years. Why bother to cast? Striking is less laborious and easier. The counterfeiters simply did not have any dies to work with so they casted. Perhaps more will be learned as Bob sends me more Moderns/Fakes.