The Ultra Rare *1963-CC* Seated Liberty Dollar!

I would think that whoever made that one would continue making them with continuous dates. Then someone like Whitman could make an Album for them. 1963 to present.
And as an added bonus, one for the other Mints too.

That's complete and utter crap. There's nothing altered about it. It's a COMPLETELY different coin made from a lump of silver. Might as well have been melted down and a new planchet made. There's no difference.

If I take a plain old Wheat cent and completely restrike it into a 55 doubled die are you telling me it's an altered coin and not a counterfeit? That's completely absurd.

@scubu - Sorry let me actually clarify what I mean. :-) It's mostly semantics and there is -- as you mentioned with a scenario where one is melted down and re-cast for example -- a good amount of grey area. But that's how they're classified, based upon method of manufacture. In this context the nomenclature is as follows:

"Counterfeit" simply means "a coin that is not genuinely what it seems to be." This is the "catch all" category. :-)

Subcategories are:

"Altered coin" simply means "a genuine coin changed to be something it's not."

The main subcategories of "Altered Coins" are:
- "Overstrikes" i.e. "A genuine coin struck again with a different set of dies to make it look like something it isn't." and
- "Carved Coins" i.e. "A genuine coin that has had material carved off of it or moved around manually with a sharp implement."
- "Augmented Coins" i.e. "A genuine coin that has had material added to it." (such as a glued-on mint mark)

"Cast Counterfeit" refers to "a coin that was completely fabricated by a casting process."

The subcategories of "Cast Counterfeits" have to do with the different casting processes utilized (Sand Cast, Wax Cast and its subcategories, Impression Cast, etc.).

"Struck Counterfeit" refers to "a coin that was completely fabricated by a striking process."

The subcategories of "Struck Counterfeits" have to do with the method of preparing the dies (Electrotype, Lathed, Soft Struck, etc.) combined with method of striking (such as Die Press Struck, Blast Struck, Pneumatically Struck etc.).

Hence, Overstrikes are "altered coins" ("counterfeit" in one sense) but at the same time not "counterfeit" (in another sense, as it started as a real coin). Much like someone taking a 1909 VDB and striking an S onto it: It's a "genuine" 1909 VDB, but that S is fake shouldn't be there.

This is the technicality that Carr is banking on, which is a treacherous (and uncomfortable) fulcrum upon which to sit. :-)

On The Black Cabinet, the three major designations are simply "Counterfeit" (under which falls cast, struck, etc.) "Altered Coin" (under which falls overstrikes, carved, augmented, etc.) and "Counterfeit Slab" (which can then have the counterfeit it contains listed separately).

The only reason for these three choices is a matter of how the ID numbers for the site are formatted. (See "ID Numbers" a the bottom of http://fakes.numismetrica.com/count...attribution/ ).

I thought Carr took actual coins and overstruck his fantasies on them. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Most of Carr's fantasy dates are overstrikes rather than from his own planchets. The 2009 "proof" ASE is my favorite example where he overstrikes a bullion ASE. ( http://www.dc-coin.com/fantasyover-...sacoins.aspx ) This is why he gives very strongly worded disclaimers:




His medals and some of his other work is from his own planchets.

He does, but anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that when you use 400 tons of pressure to strike a coin it doesn't matter what you use. It's not an altered coin, it's brand new coin. I mean by this asinine logic you could use a "flisbin" then claim it's nothing but an altered "flisbin." Duh. If Ford scraps an F150 and uses the metal to make an Edge what is it? An Edge or an altered F150? Again... Duh.

I can't wait for the day a 1964 Peace dollar surfaces like the 74 aluminum cent did. Then they will all instantly be counterfeits right?

I mean seriously, anyone that really thinks out of over 300,000 of these none left the mint needs a reality check. They were only weighed, not inspected. If you had the chance you wouldn't have snagged one and thrown your Zippo in the hopper?

Well, keep in mind....80 years prior, in the 1880's, the Mint had the ability to weigh 6000 ounces with an accuracy of just over 1% of a single Morgan Dollar - 5 grains. I would imagine that by 1964, their ability to resolve weight might have improved in the meantime. So, you'd obviously need to have a slug of the precise weight of the coin you're taking already handy.

Not that it's impossible. But, especially given the skill of people like Daniel Carr, I'd contend that even if some real ones made it out of the Mint, the background noise of current quality counterfeiting would make it impossible to be 100% sure such a coin was real.

The 1964 Peace dollar is effectively dead for all time.

Y'know, I've always considered it a refuge of the weak and needlessly-argumentative to resort to differences about semantics. A rock is still a rock even if your preference is to call it a feather.