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Die Polish Lines

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donkrx's Avatar
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2012  04:23 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I have been told die polish lines do not affect a coin's grade at all, and I somewhat understand the reasoning for that, but is there really no point at which excessive amounts detract from the grade? I saw a coin on here maybe a week or so ago that was a 68 or 69 with a LOT of pronounced polish lines and it surprised me.

If we consider things like quality of strike for the higher gem grades (65-70), why not also the presence/absence of die polish lines? To me they are distracting flaws that produce suboptimal specimens, much like a coin with a really weak strike or nonexistent luster. Even if its not damage or wear, they're still deviations from intended 'perfect' coin. The die gets damaged by the mint worker which then transfers imperfections to the struck coin. Why is this acceptable in the community?

I'm not suggesting, for example, that a 70 be void of all die polish lines, I'm just saying it should be a factor in the grade.

Or am I misinformed here and they do impact the grade? If they do, thats a little bit of a problem because some graders appear to ignore them, like with the 69 coin I saw. Either way I'd like to know so I can better understand grading coins.
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John1's Avatar
United States
56855 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2012  05:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am far from being any good at grading but I think there are two parts to grading a coin. There is technical grade and then there is eye appeal. A coin that grades out at MS69 with polish lines is technically a 69, even the lines will be 69 but to me the lines take away the eye appeal of the coin. I hope I am explaining myself right
John1
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Prethen's Avatar
United States
3234 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2012  11:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Prethen to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die polish lines would likely affect the highest grades. If they're barely there, then maybe it shouldn't get in to a 70 holder. More detracting ones would probably force the grader to not let it into the a higher grade holder. Remember, the services are MARKET grading coins, hence the term "market acceptable" being bandied about when it comes to the grades people see on various coins (or the no-grades) that occur.
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donkrx's Avatar
United States
227 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2012  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add donkrx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry I was wrong - the coin I saw did not get a 69, it got a 67.


Quote:
John1: A coin that grades out at MS69 with polish lines is technically a 69, even the lines will be 69 but to me the lines take away the eye appeal of the coin. I hope I am explaining myself right


Well, according to PCGS, the grade we see on the slab is referred to as the "final grade" which DOES account for eye appeal (for all coins).


Quote:

PCGS.com:

Eye Appeal is one component of grade.

[....]

The "technical" grade of the coin is the grade of the coin based on the factors above without taking eye appeal into consideration. Eye appeal either adds or subtracts from the "technical" grade, or is neutral as a factor in determining the final grade. For toning, PCGS uses seven levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Ugly". For luster on mint state coins and depth of reflectivity on proofs, PCGS uses six levels of eye appeal, from "Amazing" to "Negative".


So this brings up a related issue... I don't see why toning is included in the grade at all when that part is like 95% a matter of taste and opinion (and varies a LOT). For example, some of their pictures of good/positive toning to me look bad. Grading is always an "opinion", I understand, but whats the point of grading toning? Can you really say, for just one example, that a tan color is better/worse than a white coin? And even if/when you can say a coin clearly has above average toning what is the point of including it into the grade? We don't need a professional opinion on what color or toning is best, lol.

If anything a plus (+) or minus (-) should be used to designate a significant positive/negative eye appeal consideration, but that's it. A star (*) could then replace the old plus (+) to indicate above average technical details. This would separate the subjective/eye appeal grade from the final grade but all of the same information would still be provided. I'm not claiming it would make the slab grade 100% reliable (we'd still have to evaluate the coin ourselves) but it would improve consistency by reducing the highly subjective part of the grading process. Which is what everyone wants right?

People say "buy the coin and not the holder" for reasons like this... weakly defined or highly subjective grading criteria are difficult to evaluate and introduce all kinds of variance. This would be a way to reduce that variance among graders.
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sheeptotherescue's Avatar
United States
154 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2012  12:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sheeptotherescue to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Definitively graded "Ugly", that cracks me up. Now I want to go see how much an officially ugly coin costs.
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