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1887 Retained Die Break Or Just A Die Crack?

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robbudo's Avatar
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2757 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2012  07:48 am Show Profile   Check robbudo's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add robbudo to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
a retained die break is just a die crack that goes from rim to rim, right?

1887-Retained-Die-Break-Or-Just-A-Die-Crack?

1887-Retained-Die-Break-Or-Just-A-Die-Crack?

1887-Retained-Die-Break-Or-Just-A-Die-Crack?

1887-Retained-Die-Break-Or-Just-A-Die-Crack?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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23522 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2012  3:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks complete, rim-to-rim. I'd call that a Retained Cud. See if you can see any surface displacement.
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Windycity's Avatar
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366 Posts
 Posted 09/19/2012  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Windycity to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree... looks like a Retained Cud to me.
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 09/19/2012  11:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see no displacement of the die face so it is a die crack and not a Retained Cud.
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Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
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 Posted 09/20/2012  04:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'd call it a die crack. A Cud is created when part of the die is gone, and it just leaves a "gob" of metal with no dentils or definition.

Chance
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 09/20/2012  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Chancellor, there's also - as Conder mentioned - a " Retained Cud" where the piece is actually no longer connected to the die, but still striking due to the tight fit in the press. It's characterized by notable field displacement; under the right viewing, you can see where the Cud's position on the z-axis doesn't match the rest of the coin yet.

I called it that; Conder called it not. It's been my experience both that "completed" cracks are rarely found still actually connected to the die, but it's also my experience that when Conder and I disagree, he's right.

Having taken a closer look, I note the crack does not seem to fully extend through the bottom arrow. Wear may have caused this look, but I doubt that so we're going to lean Conder's way on this one.

Either way, this die did not strike too many more after the coin pictured here.
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OldSkoolMadSkilz's Avatar
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 Posted 09/21/2012  4:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OldSkoolMadSkilz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you look at the dentils at the upper end of the crack, there is just the slightest amount of displacement. To become a Cud, the crack would have to propagate to the outer diameter of the die underneath. This one must propagate to the outer edge on top, but inward on the bottom. Even so, I'd bet it didn't last too much longer after that coin was struck. If a piece did fall off, it would have made a huge Cud.
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